Sword for ID

russel · 18th February 2014, 03:49 AM

Hello guys,

I normally hang out at the Ethnographic Forum but thought this item would be best identified here. I have been sent the attached images of a sword which has thus far eluded identification. I hope somebody here can help.

Cheers - Russel

thinreadline · 18th February 2014, 11:44 AM

You dont mention blade lengths etc so I might be barking up the wrong tree here, however , the blade appears to be from a British bayonet of the 19th century . Either a Pattern 1856/1860 sword bayonet for the Enfield rifle or if it is straight , from one of the 1880s Martini Henry series of straight bladed sword bayonets ( see pic 3 ) . Its hard to make out because of the angle of the pics but would you say this is a yataghan shaped blade as in the bayonet I have shown in my attached picture or a straight blade ? Looking at the fuller length it seems more likely to be from a Martini bayonet .
However , in my opinion , the handle is a fantasy created in someone's workshop. The handle is in the Oriental style favoured in the late 18th / early 19th century but I know of no British military issue sword which conforms to this design. I also believe the WD ( War Dept ) mark on the handle to be spurious ( see the attached close up of a genuine one ) . The other possible interpretation is that it was assembled as a side arm for a military bandsman . Many bayonets were reworked to make decorative sidearms for bandsmen in the 19th century but this is a type I have not encountered before and I am not happy about the authenticity of the WD marks .

thinreadline · 19th February 2014, 08:27 AM

Russel ... let me have the dimensions of your sword and then I can investigate further.

russel · 19th February 2014, 08:34 AM

Thanks. Sadly, I have left the details at work. Not sadly, I have a few days off.

I'll post again when I return to work later in the week.

Russel

thinreadline · 19th February 2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russel

Thanks. Sadly, I have left the details at work. Not sadly, I have a few days off.

I'll post again when I return to work later in the week.

Russel

OK ... thats great , look forward to it.

russel · 21st February 2014, 09:13 PM

The length of the sword is 28.5in (727mm). The owner tells me he has two of these, and believes they may have been issues in Tasmania prior to Australian Federation in 1901. I have asked him for more images.

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2014, 05:56 PM

Hi Russel,
I am inclined to agree with a number of TRL's observations, the WD arrow marks on the hilt do seem spurious, and the solid cast brass hilt does resemble bandsmans swords of the mid 19th c.

It is interesting to note the post-service use of so many bayonets, particularly in colonial settings. Many native edged weapons have been fashioned using these once issued bayonet blades, for example many of the sboula daggers of the Moroccan and some Saharan regions. The short and solid blades of bayonets often served well for any number of utilitarian or ersatz purposes.

The possibility of perhaps a bayonet blade used to fabricate a weapon to be used as a stage prop also crossed my mind, as this is well known to have taken place in many cases in the latter 19th c. However, the placement of these spurious WD markings would seem superfluous, thus defeating that idea .

Another interesting circumstance involves the case of the curious phenomenon of the Francis Bannerman firm of New York, operating in latter 19th and into 20th c. and who purchased huge hoards of surplus arms. They catered to the burgeoning ranks of collectors and those interested in war souveniers. In many instances the firm quite literally produced 'antique' pieces using authentic components along with fabricated hilts, one star example was the briquette. Typically however these were actually stamped with the firms own markings as identification.
Perhaps this unusual weapon might have been produced in like manner by another producer ?

If this had been something actually issued to units of other ranks even in military parlance in any country , the WD marks are telling.

I do look forward to images of the other examples.

All the best,
Jim

russel · 28th February 2014, 12:11 AM

Hi Guys, thanks for your thoughts thus far. Attached is an image of the swords along with their scabbards.

I hope this helps.

Thanks again, Russel

colin henshaw · 28th February 2014, 09:22 AM

Hi

Not my area of interest, but a suggestion - could they be Australian (Tasmanian) made conversions using bayonet blades, for local police or militia type use ??

18th February 2014, 03:49 AM	#1
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	Sword for ID Hello guys, I normally hang out at the Ethnographic Forum but thought this item would be best identified here. I have been sent the attached images of a sword which has thus far eluded identification. I hope somebody here can help. Cheers - Russel Attached Images

18th February 2014, 11:44 AM	#2
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	You dont mention blade lengths etc so I might be barking up the wrong tree here, however , the blade appears to be from a British bayonet of the 19th century . Either a Pattern 1856/1860 sword bayonet for the Enfield rifle or if it is straight , from one of the 1880s Martini Henry series of straight bladed sword bayonets ( see pic 3 ) . Its hard to make out because of the angle of the pics but would you say this is a yataghan shaped blade as in the bayonet I have shown in my attached picture or a straight blade ? Looking at the fuller length it seems more likely to be from a Martini bayonet . However , in my opinion , the handle is a fantasy created in someone's workshop. The handle is in the Oriental style favoured in the late 18th / early 19th century but I know of no British military issue sword which conforms to this design. I also believe the WD ( War Dept ) mark on the handle to be spurious ( see the attached close up of a genuine one ) . The other possible interpretation is that it was assembled as a side arm for a military bandsman . Many bayonets were reworked to make decorative sidearms for bandsmen in the 19th century but this is a type I have not encountered before and I am not happy about the authenticity of the WD marks . Attached Images Last edited by thinreadline; 18th February 2014 at 11:59 AM.

28th February 2014, 12:11 AM	#8
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	More images Hi Guys, thanks for your thoughts thus far. Attached is an image of the swords along with their scabbards. I hope this helps. Thanks again, Russel Attached Images

19th February 2014, 08:27 AM	#3
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Russel ... let me have the dimensions of your sword and then I can investigate further.

19th February 2014, 08:34 AM	#4
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	Thanks. Sadly, I have left the details at work. Not sadly, I have a few days off. I'll post again when I return to work later in the week. Russel

21st February 2014, 09:13 PM	#6
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	The length of the sword is 28.5in (727mm). The owner tells me he has two of these, and believes they may have been issues in Tasmania prior to Australian Federation in 1901. I have asked him for more images.

22nd February 2014, 05:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,937	Hi Russel, I am inclined to agree with a number of TRL's observations, the WD arrow marks on the hilt do seem spurious, and the solid cast brass hilt does resemble bandsmans swords of the mid 19th c. It is interesting to note the post-service use of so many bayonets, particularly in colonial settings. Many native edged weapons have been fashioned using these once issued bayonet blades, for example many of the sboula daggers of the Moroccan and some Saharan regions. The short and solid blades of bayonets often served well for any number of utilitarian or ersatz purposes. The possibility of perhaps a bayonet blade used to fabricate a weapon to be used as a stage prop also crossed my mind, as this is well known to have taken place in many cases in the latter 19th c. However, the placement of these spurious WD markings would seem superfluous, thus defeating that idea . Another interesting circumstance involves the case of the curious phenomenon of the Francis Bannerman firm of New York, operating in latter 19th and into 20th c. and who purchased huge hoards of surplus arms. They catered to the burgeoning ranks of collectors and those interested in war souveniers. In many instances the firm quite literally produced 'antique' pieces using authentic components along with fabricated hilts, one star example was the briquette. Typically however these were actually stamped with the firms own markings as identification. Perhaps this unusual weapon might have been produced in like manner by another producer ? If this had been something actually issued to units of other ranks even in military parlance in any country , the WD marks are telling. I do look forward to images of the other examples. All the best, Jim

28th February 2014, 09:22 AM	#9
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Not my area of interest, but a suggestion - could they be Australian (Tasmanian) made conversions using bayonet blades, for local police or militia type use ??