Jambiya thouma

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,

I searched all the forum about the jambiya thouma.
And I was very dispointed by the results.
If I follow what I got on the forum and the two books that I have (Elgood and Gracie).
This kind of jambiya exist at least since the 19th.
The later ones were made of plain metal iron or brass, then we have the filigree ones made by the Jews with some stamps at the back of the scabbard. Then after 1940ties low quality work...
Is it too simplistic? Do you have more information or more simply some examples to post??? It could be very useful for all... and for me

Kubur

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Guys,

I searched all the forum about the jambiya thouma.
And I was very dispointed by the results.
If I follow what I got on the forum and the two books that I have (Elgood and Gracie).
This kind of jambiya exist at least since the 19th.
The later ones were made of plain metal iron or brass, then we have the filigree ones made by the Jews with some stamps at the back of the scabbard. Then after 1940ties low quality work...
Is it too simplistic? Do you have more information or more simply some examples to post??? It could be very useful for all... and for me

Kubur

Hi Kubur,
I think that I may have one or two of these but I did not know they were called Thouma. I will try and root them out and send some photos in the next day or so.
Miguel

[Kubur]

Thank you Miguel
I hope that some old and experimented members will help too...

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Kubur,
I think that I may have one or two of these but I did not know they were called Thouma. I will try and root them out and send some photos in the next day or so.
Miguel

Hi Kubur, As promised I have attached the photos. You will have to forgive me if they are not what you were asking for as I had not come across the name Thouma before I have only known them as Yemenite Jambiyas. Also I am pretty sure that the one with the silver plated copper hilt and scabbard is a Tourist piece. I also looked up some old threads on Thoumas and in one in particular the comments of Abrahaim made me think that the other two of the three I have shown are Tourist pieces also and if so apologise for my lack of knowledge of these items, just trying to be helpful.
Regards
Miguel

[Kubur]

Hi Miguel,

Thank you very much, up to now you are the only one who tried to help.
I hope that you are joking about your jambiya! The first hadrami one is excellent!! It's a really good one. I'm more sceptical about the second one quiete recent. For the last one, difficult to say as it's an Indian jambiya and I know nothing about this kind, the shape looks good.
Unfortuntaly it's not what i was loooking for.

Kind regards,
Kubur

[Oriental-Arms]

Three classical Thouma Jambiya daggers. All late 19 - early 20C. Rhino horn hilts and silver mounts. Each one shown complete with the belt fully extended and a close up on the dagger and scabbard. Enjoy

[Kubur]

Thank you very much
I was starting to think that the old members and dealers weren't so involved to help people. You proved me that I was wrong. But I'm still very disappointed by the Forum.

[DaveA]

For your consideration, here is one of my Yemeni jambiya, pre-1920. The thumah style scabbard extends downward without the strong degree of curvature found in the 'aseeb style scabbard. The thumah ends in a traditional silver-ball type decoration called a "kawthara". An exquisite silver plate, called a "tuza", decorates the thumah. On the rear of the thumah is found a small metal piece bearing the name of the creator. This confirms a data of manufacture prior to 1920 when it became forbidden to sign jewelry of any kind in Yemen. This type of jambiya is sometimes referred to as a tuza.

The tuza jambiya was reserved for the religious elite of the country, including those who claimed direct descent from the Prophet Muhammad (BBHN). Imams and those especially learned individuals who served as judges, teachers or administrators for the Imam also wore the thumah. The thumah-scabbard of dignitaries and townsmen of high degree (seyyids and qådis) is often dark, offering high contrast with the ornate silver decoration.

- Dave A.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you very much
I was starting to think that the old members and dealers weren't so involved to help people. You proved me that I was wrong. But I'm still very disappointed by the Forum.

I've put a couple of very interesting articles about Yemeni jambiya in my dropbox. You can find them for download at the following link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxznitnfa...wvyKkcUja?dl=0

Please let me know if you have trouble downloading them. Contact me by PM with your email address and I'll be happy to send them.

Best,

Dave A.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I've put a couple of very interesting articles about Yemeni jambiya in my dropbox. You can find them for download at the following link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxznitnfa...wvyKkcUja?dl=0

Please let me know if you have trouble downloading them. Contact me by PM with your email address and I'll be happy to send them.

Best,

Dave A.

Thanks for posting these Dave. I already have copies of these in my library, and I would recommend that those interested in the subject, print off a hard copy for future reference. The one on Silverwork is particularly interesting.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Thank you very much
I was starting to think that the old members and dealers weren't so involved to help people. You proved me that I was wrong. But I'm still very disappointed by the Forum.

You may see the Forum as disappointing, but remember that not all Members are on line every day.

[Tim Simmons]

Kubur, the answers are not on the forum. You have to do your own work and teach us all {those that are interested} I do apologise for my own jaded view on some material.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for posting these Dave. I already have copies of these in my library, and I would recommend that those interested in the subject, print off a hard copy for future reference. The one on Silverwork is particularly interesting.
Stu

I just added another file to this folder that might be useful. It is a glossary of Yemeni terms related to various types and parts of janbiya and scabbards.

- Dave A.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxznitnfa...wvyKkcUja?dl=0

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I just added another file to this folder that might be useful. It is a glossary of Yemeni terms related to various types and parts of janbiya and scabbards.

- Dave A.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxznitnfa...wvyKkcUja?dl=0

Hi Kubur, Glad to see that you are getting the info you requested. Miguel
ps Sorry I clicked wrong button should have been the reply not the quote.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Kubur, the answers are not on the forum. You have to do your own work and teach us all {those that are interested} I do apologise for my own jaded view on some material.

I agree with Tim. SOME information is often available on the Forum, but most is gleaned by reading and searching other sites on the internet.
I am a little surprised that you are having trouble finding information on Thouma Jambiyas as you say you have Steve Gracie's book. He describes these, and other styles at length.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I agree with Tim. SOME information is often available on the Forum, but most is gleaned by reading and searching other sites on the internet.
I am a little surprised that you are having trouble finding information on Thouma Jambiyas as you say you have Steve Gracie's book. He describes these, and other styles at length.

Hi All,

Thanks you for your comments and constructive answers.
Steve Gracie's book is excellent and after?
Do you think that it's a bible with all the answers? It's not.
For the question of research, unfortunately as I have read on some threads on the forum, many members don't know what research is. And I won't do this job. Gracie shows very interesting old jambiya with dates, but then most of the jambiya are described by type and area. It's really good, but I would like to have more information about the differences between 19th c. jambiya, 1920ties and 1950ties jambiya. I'm not interested by the later ones.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DaveA

I just added another file to this folder that might be useful. It is a glossary of Yemeni terms related to various types and parts of janbiya and scabbards.

- Dave A.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mxznitnfa...wvyKkcUja?dl=0

Dear Dave,

Thank you so much for your example, your posts and your files.
It's very much appreciated and so useful.
At one point, your jambiya added to my confusion.
I've seen somewhere on the forum that the jambiya with this drawings and inscriptions on the blades are very much connected to Jewish work from the 1950ties... And the filigree work looks very different from the filigree work posted by Oriental Arms. The stamp at the back is a silver proof? Do they still use this silver proof in Yemen? On Gracie's book there is a silver proof with a very old date...

Best wishes,
Kubur

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi All,

Thanks you for your comments and constructive answers.
Steve Gracie's book is excellent and after?
Do you think that it's a bible with all the answers? It's not.
For the question of research, unfortunately as I have read on some threads on the forum, many members don't know what research is. And I won't do this job. Gracie shows very interesting old jambiya with dates, but then most of the jambiya are described by type and area. It's really good, but I would like to have more information about the differences between 19th c. jambiya, 1920ties and 1950ties jambiya. I'm not interested by the later ones.

Hi Kubur,
I do not, and did not suggest that Steve's book is "THE BIBLE" with ALL the answers. No book can possibly answer ALL the questions a reader is liable to ask.
Your original thread did not specifically ask for the difference between various Thouma and how to date them, simply asking Members for the information they might have on the style itself.
BUT if information is sought, then one must also research for themselves, and not necessarily rely on others to do the job for them. You state above, and I quote "And I won't do this job". Maybe you should reconsider.....
Have you for instance emailed the writer of the book? Maybe you could consider that. There is a contact email printed on page 211. I'm sure Steve would be happy to answer your specific questions.
Good Luck

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by Kubur

...
I've seen somewhere on the forum that the jambiya with this drawings and inscriptions on the blades are very much connected to Jewish work from the 1950ties...

Virtually no Jewish artisans remained in Yemen after the 1949/1950 airlift to Israel. Jambiya from Yemen made after that date were almost certainly made by Muslims, or the few Jews who converted to Islam. I suppose it is possible my jambiya was made in Israel, but I think not.

Remember also that Muslims are forbidden to decorate with representational images (e.g., faces).

=Kubar
And the filigree work looks very different from the filigree work posted by Oriental Arms.

The Tuza is a unique type of filigree. See sources cited earlier.

=Kubar
The stamp at the back is a silver proof? Do they still use this silver proof in Yemen?


According to the resources I have (see links to documents to download elsewhere in this thread), artisans were forbidden in Yemen to sign their work in any manner after 1920.

I have not had this item tested for metallurgy.

Thanks for the questions.

Best,

Dave A.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Virtually no Jewish artisans remained in Yemen after the 1949/1950 airlift to Israel. Jambiya from Yemen made after that date were almost certainly made by Muslims, or the few Jews who converted to Islam. I suppose it is possible my jambiya was made in Israel, but I think not.

Remember also that Muslims are forbidden to decorate with representational images (e.g., faces).

=Kubar
And the filigree work looks very different from the filigree work posted by Oriental Arms.

The Tuza is a unique type of filigree. See sources cited earlier.

=Kubar
The stamp at the back is a silver proof? Do they still use this silver proof in Yemen?


According to the resources I have (see links to documents to download elsewhere in this thread), artisans were forbidden in Yemen to sign their work in any manner after 1920.

I have not had this item tested for metallurgy.

Thanks for the questions.

Best,

Dave A.

Hi Dave, I have seen this type of blade decoration before also and cannot comment as to the origin of it. Possibly added later???
Regarding the "proof" stamp. Have a look under the backing leather if you can. I suspect that the "stamp" is in fact a separate piece of metal/silver. IF this was a makers STAMP then it would be just that....a stamp into the metal of the scabbard, and not attached later. (See example below) I have never heard of silver proofing in Yemen, but that is not to say that it did not happen.
Regards Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Kubur,
BUT if information is sought, then one must also research for themselves, and not necessarily rely on others to do the job for them. You state above, and I quote "And I won't do this job". Maybe you should reconsider.....
Have you for instance emailed the writer of the book? Maybe you could consider that. There is a contact email printed on page 211. I'm sure Steve would be happy to answer your specific questions.
Good Luck

Dear Stu,
Thank you for your idea to contact the author. But I was thinking that it could be more interesting to post a thread. For me it was the whole idea of this forum, no? It seems that you have few jambiya, do you have the kind we talked about?
Best,

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Remember also that Muslims are forbidden to decorate with representational images (e.g., faces).
Dave A.

Dear Dave,

Thank you for all these informations, I feel less stupid now!
Only one point is wrong. Muslims are forbiden to represent humans or animals in the moques. Islamic art is full of human figures. So it's not a point that we can link to Jews.

Regards,
Kubur

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Dave, I have seen this type of blade decoration before also and cannot comment as to the origin of it. Possibly added later???
Regarding the "proof" stamp. Have a look under the backing leather if you can. I suspect that the "stamp" is in fact a separate piece of metal/silver. IF this was a makers STAMP then it would be just that....a stamp into the metal of the scabbard, and not attached later. (See example below) I have never heard of silver proofing in Yemen, but that is not to say that it did not happen.
Regards Stu

Someone translated these stamps???
Ottomans controled Yemen, it could be Silver proof...

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Stu,
Thank you for your idea to contact the author. But I was thinking that it could be more interesting to post a thread. For me it was the whole idea of this forum, no? It seems that you have few jambiya, do you have the kind we talked about?
Best,

Hi Kubur,
All avenues of investigation need to be followed to improve one's knowledge of the particular subject, including posts to the Forum, books, and any other way, such as email contact with informed people.
As far any Thumah jambiya in my collection go, I only have one now, but did have some others.
The one I have now, and posted here, is probably more correctly called a Julba, due to it's size. It is 19" (48.5cm) top to bottom. The whole is made of high quality silver with beautiful decoration, and is signed and dated by the maker. It weighs 1.2kg.
The translation of the Arabic reads AMAL (made by) MOHAMED MIDWANE 1378 (1958 AD) JEDDAH So we know who made it, where it was made, and also when.
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Kubur,
The one I have now, and posted here, is probably more correctly called a Julba, due to it's size. It is 19" (48.5cm) top to bottom. The whole is made of high quality silver with beautiful decoration, and is signed and dated by the maker. It weighs 1.2kg.
The translation of the Arabic reads AMAL (made by) MOHAMED MIDWANE 1378 (1958 AD) JEDDAH So we know who made it, where it was made, and also when.
Stu

Hi Stu,

Very beautiful jambiya, so this size is in between the thouma and the dharia??
Jeddah its interesting because according to Gracie this kind is from Yemen normaly...

Best, Kubur

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Stu,

Very beautiful jambiya, so this size is in between the thouma and the dharia??
Jeddah its interesting because according to Gracie this kind is from Yemen normaly...

Best, Kubur

No the size is not necessarily between the Thumah and Dharia. Some Dharias (Sabiki) are smaller than this Julba.
The Dharia(Sabiki) is a completely different style which is worn horizontally across the waist.
He actually says that Julba are from the Tihama area, (part of with is Yemen and part modern day Saudi Arabia)....see page 137.

[Kubur]

Hi Guys,
I wanted to share with you this thouma just arrived.
I don't know if it's an old or a new one and i don't care.
I just know that has been used and almost sure that it's a rhino grip.
Best,
Kubur