An Interesting Old Quality Daab/Dha with Lacquered Wooden Scabbard

CharlesS · 15th January 2011, 04:21 PM

Here is what I believe to be a Northern Thai daab/dha with some very interesting features and a most interesting scabbard which is made of wood, with heavy black lacquer decorated in typical Thai and Burmese motifs in gold.The gold paint in nearly worn away at the center point of the scabbard where it was most often handled.

The sword is 37in. overall, with a 16in. hilt and ivory with silver mounts, and a 19in. blade with its maker's mark and a clear heat hardened edge.

Comments and observations are most welcomed.

Battara · 15th January 2011, 06:31 PM

Well I wondered who got this one. I love it and what a great piece! Good ivory carving and the gold on the unusual scabbard is superb. Thanks for posting this Charles.

Nathaniel · 16th January 2011, 01:15 AM

Very beautiful piece! I was wondering who got this one too!! Great to see the Photos!!! Thanks for sharing!!!

Nathaniel · 16th January 2011, 01:16 AM

Charles can snap a close up of the makers mark of the blade!?!?!

VANDOO · 16th January 2011, 02:53 AM

CONGRADULATIONS THAT IS A BEAUTY.

THE SCABBARD IS UNUSUAL AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY I HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THE CARVED IVORY IS QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON MOST BURMESE AND THAI SWORDS OR CARVINGS. THE FACES ARE CARVED TO LOOK ALMOST TIKI LIKE NOT LIKE BEAUTIFUL HUMAN FACES AS USUAL. OF COURSE IT MAY NOT REPRESENT A HUMAN BUT A MONKEY GOD OR SOMETHING. PERHAPS THE DESIGNS ON THE SCABBARD AND THE CARVEING STYLE WILL SHED MORE LIGHT ON ITS ORIGINS.

Battara · 16th January 2011, 04:42 AM

Well I am sure that these faces are not of Hanuman. However, who can they be?

I may post (after I take close ups) my ivory hilted dha to show similar figures carved in "tiki" form, but these are all Hanumans.

Andrew · 16th January 2011, 03:36 PM

Gorgeous. Definitely Thai.

I've never seen such a scabbard and I'm green with envy.

Congrats, Charles.

RSWORD · 16th January 2011, 04:02 PM

That is indeed one beautiful sword! One question I have is about the blade. Is this blade form common in Thai swords? Not only do you have the rare element of this type of scabbard but I would think a rare element of the blade form specifically in regards to Thai swords.

CharlesS · 16th January 2011, 04:42 PM

The pics of the ivory are a little deceiving...the ivory is actually much darker and has more of a rich "honeyed" patina than the pics indicate. Something about the flash seems to have practically bleached the appearance of the ivory.

Thanks for the input.

Nathaniel · 16th January 2011, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

That is indeed one beautiful sword! One question I have is about the blade. Is this blade form common in Thai swords? Not only do you have the rare element of this type of scabbard but I would think a rare element of the blade form specifically in regards to Thai swords.

I agree the blade shape is something not as prevalent with Thai...the flat square tip reminds me of more of the Kachin style...?!?!?!

Nathaniel · 16th January 2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

CONGRADULATIONS THAT IS A BEAUTY.

THE SCABBARD IS UNUSUAL AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY I HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THE CARVED IVORY IS QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON MOST BURMESE AND THAI SWORDS OR CARVINGS. THE FACES ARE CARVED TO LOOK ALMOST TIKI LIKE NOT LIKE BEAUTIFUL HUMAN FACES AS USUAL. OF COURSE IT MAY NOT REPRESENT A HUMAN BUT A MONKEY GOD OR SOMETHING. PERHAPS THE DESIGNS ON THE SCABBARD AND THE CARVEING STYLE WILL SHED MORE LIGHT ON ITS ORIGINS.

I thought there was some comment by Mark that the differences in ivory carving styles that the more delicate latticework carving was more Burman/mon: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=moulmein

And that the more superficial carving was more Northern style of Shan?

This was a good discussion regarding ivory carving styles:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=burmese+ivory

Nathaniel · 16th January 2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

CONGRADULATIONS THAT IS A BEAUTY.

THE SCABBARD IS UNUSUAL AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY I HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THE CARVED IVORY IS QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON MOST BURMESE AND THAI SWORDS OR CARVINGS. THE FACES ARE CARVED TO LOOK ALMOST TIKI LIKE NOT LIKE BEAUTIFUL HUMAN FACES AS USUAL. OF COURSE IT MAY NOT REPRESENT A HUMAN BUT A MONKEY GOD OR SOMETHING. PERHAPS THE DESIGNS ON THE SCABBARD AND THE CARVEING STYLE WILL SHED MORE LIGHT ON ITS ORIGINS.

Charles, it would be interesting as well to see close ups of each of the scenes of each panel on the scabbard, when you have time

They look like scenes from the Ramakien: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakien

Battara · 17th January 2011, 05:27 AM

Here are pictures of my dha with similar carvings (but of Hanuman figures) in ivory from the Shan (according to Mark Bowditch) for comparison and explanation of what I talked about earlier (Pictures from the Macao exhibit and Mark Bowditch).

Andrew · 18th January 2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

That is indeed one beautiful sword! One question I have is about the blade. Is this blade form common in Thai swords? Not only do you have the rare element of this type of scabbard but I would think a rare element of the blade form specifically in regards to Thai swords.

Hi Rick. Thai sword and knife blades come in a bewildering variety of shapes, most of which have unique names. This is not the most common form of tip but, likewise, far from the most uncommon.

I agree--it is similar to the square tips generally associated with "Kachin" dha, and even Naga sword dao. I believe the name for this tip style in Thai is Hua Bua Tad, but my notes are not well organized.

In any event, I reiterate my earlier comments and will add this--in my opinon, this is an important sword.

Nathaniel · 19th January 2011, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hi Rick. Thai sword and knife blades come in a bewildering variety of shapes, most of which have unique names. This is not the most common form of tip but, likewise, far from the most uncommon.

I agree--it is similar to the square tips generally associated with "Kachin" dha, and even Naga sword dao. I believe the name for this tip style in Thai is Hua Bua Tad, but my notes are not well organized.

In any event, I reiterate my earlier comments and will add this--in my opinon, this is an important sword.

Andrew, I see that on http://cozun.com/Blades/ThaiSwordsAranyik/TS15-28.htm website they have Hua Bua Tad listed with the picture of the square/ flat tip....but this label is confusing...Hua = head, Bua = lotus & Tad (Dhat) = cut...I don't get why "Lotus" is in the label...it makes sense to describe a spear/ lotus bud tip, but doesn't describe a square/ flat tip.

Battara · 19th January 2011, 03:15 AM

I guess my question is different - mythologically speaking, who are the carved ivory figures?

Nathaniel · 19th January 2011, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess my question is different - mythologically speaking, who are the carved ivory figures?

I wonder if they are the evil army of demons who opposed Rama in the Ramakien??? Thai Yaksha similar to the temple guardian Andrew has for his Avatar? Or the monkey soldiers of Rama, like Hanuman???

aiontay · 20th January 2011, 12:16 AM

Just comment on the shape of the blade. It has been awhile since I was in Northern Thailand, but I think I remember seeing plenty of utility farm blades with a square "point" so this blade shape isn't unknown in Thailand, I would think.

On the other hand, it is important to keep in mind the northern Thailand, Chiang Mai in particular, was a vassal state to various Burmese kingdoms for many years at different points in history. In addition, as my Kachin friends pointed out more than once, the Burmese kings and Shan princes frequently hired Kachins and other tribal people as mercenaries, so it wouldn't impossible (although highly unlikely) that there might in fact be a Kachin influence on this blade.

Andrew · 21st January 2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Andrew, I see that on http://cozun.com/Blades/ThaiSwordsAranyik/TS15-28.htm website they have Hua Bua Tad listed with the picture of the square/ flat tip....but this label is confusing...Hua = head, Bua = lotus & Tad (Dhat) = cut...I don't get why "Lotus" is in the label...it makes sense to describe a spear/ lotus bud tip, but doesn't describe a square/ flat tip.

Nathaniel, it's pure speculation on my part, but I read it as "cut lotus bud". In other words, a lotus with the bud cut off...

Cheers,
Andrew

Andrew · 21st January 2011, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aiontay

Just comment on the shape of the blade. It has been awhile since I was in Northern Thailand, but I think I remember seeing plenty of utility farm blades with a square "point" so this blade shape isn't unknown in Thailand, I would think.

On the other hand, it is important to keep in mind the northern Thailand, Chiang Mai in particular, was a vassal state to various Burmese kingdoms for many years at different points in history. In addition, as my Kachin friends pointed out more than once, the Burmese kings and Shan princes frequently hired Kachins and other tribal people as mercenaries, so it wouldn't impossible (although highly unlikely) that there might in fact be a Kachin influence on this blade.

I would not be surprised at all if there were a Kachin influence (or even origin, as trade blades are not uncommon) on this blade form. It may well have developed independently of the similarly-tipped Kachin and Naga weapons, but Occam's Razor, however....

ArmsAndAntiques · 15th October 2016, 09:57 PM

I thought it would be worthwhile to post an example which appeared on the market earlier this year and bears strong resemblance, if not identical workshop origin, with the original posted example.

This one purportedly belonged to the son of the Governor of Bangkok. Unfortunate about the loss of the lacquer and paint, but I would be curious to hear thoughts about such outstanding and uncommon examples of near identical design and style.

Were specific swords issued to specific units or bodyguards? Are there any 19th C. images showing units outfitted with particular sword styles?

15th January 2011, 04:21 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	An Interesting Old Quality Daab/Dha with Lacquered Wooden Scabbard Here is what I believe to be a Northern Thai daab/dha with some very interesting features and a most interesting scabbard which is made of wood, with heavy black lacquer decorated in typical Thai and Burmese motifs in gold.The gold paint in nearly worn away at the center point of the scabbard where it was most often handled. The sword is 37in. overall, with a 16in. hilt and ivory with silver mounts, and a 19in. blade with its maker's mark and a clear heat hardened edge. Comments and observations are most welcomed. Attached Images

17th January 2011, 05:27 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Here are pictures of my dha with similar carvings (but of Hanuman figures) in ivory from the Shan (according to Mark Bowditch) for comparison and explanation of what I talked about earlier (Pictures from the Macao exhibit and Mark Bowditch). Attached Images

15th October 2016, 09:57 PM	#21
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	I thought it would be worthwhile to post an example which appeared on the market earlier this year and bears strong resemblance, if not identical workshop origin, with the original posted example. This one purportedly belonged to the son of the Governor of Bangkok. Unfortunate about the loss of the lacquer and paint, but I would be curious to hear thoughts about such outstanding and uncommon examples of near identical design and style. Were specific swords issued to specific units or bodyguards? Are there any 19th C. images showing units outfitted with particular sword styles? Attached Images

15th January 2011, 06:31 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Well I wondered who got this one. I love it and what a great piece! Good ivory carving and the gold on the unusual scabbard is superb. Thanks for posting this Charles.

16th January 2011, 01:15 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Very beautiful piece! I was wondering who got this one too!! Great to see the Photos!!! Thanks for sharing!!!

16th January 2011, 01:16 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Charles can snap a close up of the makers mark of the blade!?!?!

16th January 2011, 02:53 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS THAT IS A BEAUTY. THE SCABBARD IS UNUSUAL AND DIFFERENT FROM ANY I HAVE SEEN BEFORE. THE CARVED IVORY IS QUITE A BIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN ON MOST BURMESE AND THAI SWORDS OR CARVINGS. THE FACES ARE CARVED TO LOOK ALMOST TIKI LIKE NOT LIKE BEAUTIFUL HUMAN FACES AS USUAL. OF COURSE IT MAY NOT REPRESENT A HUMAN BUT A MONKEY GOD OR SOMETHING. PERHAPS THE DESIGNS ON THE SCABBARD AND THE CARVEING STYLE WILL SHED MORE LIGHT ON ITS ORIGINS.

16th January 2011, 04:42 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Well I am sure that these faces are not of Hanuman. However, who can they be? I may post (after I take close ups) my ivory hilted dha to show similar figures carved in "tiki" form, but these are all Hanumans.

16th January 2011, 03:36 PM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Gorgeous. Definitely Thai. I've never seen such a scabbard and I'm green with envy. Congrats, Charles.

16th January 2011, 04:02 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	That is indeed one beautiful sword! One question I have is about the blade. Is this blade form common in Thai swords? Not only do you have the rare element of this type of scabbard but I would think a rare element of the blade form specifically in regards to Thai swords.

16th January 2011, 04:42 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	The pics of the ivory are a little deceiving...the ivory is actually much darker and has more of a rich "honeyed" patina than the pics indicate. Something about the flash seems to have practically bleached the appearance of the ivory. Thanks for the input.

19th January 2011, 03:15 AM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I guess my question is different - mythologically speaking, who are the carved ivory figures?

20th January 2011, 12:16 AM	#18
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Just comment on the shape of the blade. It has been awhile since I was in Northern Thailand, but I think I remember seeing plenty of utility farm blades with a square "point" so this blade shape isn't unknown in Thailand, I would think. On the other hand, it is important to keep in mind the northern Thailand, Chiang Mai in particular, was a vassal state to various Burmese kingdoms for many years at different points in history. In addition, as my Kachin friends pointed out more than once, the Burmese kings and Shan princes frequently hired Kachins and other tribal people as mercenaries, so it wouldn't impossible (although highly unlikely) that there might in fact be a Kachin influence on this blade.