African dagger. Completely stumped

[blue lander]

I spent an afternoon looking through photos on the forum and I still have no idea what this one is. The seller thinks it's North African but it doesn't look very North African to me. He says the hilt is bone. The hilt shape reminds me a bit of the bayonet clone in this thread but the blade of course is completely different.

It hasn't arrived yet but once it does I'll take better pictures.

[Tim Simmons]

That is quite a thing. I would certainly say it is African although it has a slight Indian/Asian look. I do not think there is the brass fascination in India/Asia as there is in Africa. It looks North and West Coast African. I have yet to see brass blades from North East Africa. Something to look out for.

[blue lander]

I keep looking for something in its shape that would point me towards one part of Africa or another, but I just can't find a point of reference. The seller says it's 36.5 cm total with a 22cm blade.

[colin henshaw]

Never seen a knife exactly like this before. However, the very pointed, elongated blade and small circles as decoration, put me in mind of those knives/swords from Algeria or surrounding areas...

[blue lander]

You know, I can see a bevel on the back of the blade but I don't see one on the front. It's hard to tell from the pictures of course, but I wonder if it's some sort of scythe? Like a Hasiya? If that was the case I'd expect the blade to be more curved and less stabby.

[blue lander]

It just arrived today. I've attached two more pictures, one of the guard and one of the pommel. The blade and all the metal bits on it are an orangish metal, so I assume brass.

[DaveA]

The cross-hatching on the hilt reminds me of this Burmese dha in my collection. I suppose the design, having such utility for a good grip on the weapon, is probably not uncommon. No idea on the blade

Dave A

[chregu]

hello together

'm not quite sure such knives've seen in dancers.
I think there were dervish dances.

[blue lander]

Thanks for the leads everyone.

What's the etiquette for brass blades? Should I clean this one up or leave the patina on it like I would with a steel blade?

[blue lander]

Another one of these knives went up for auction, so I bought it. The seller says it's from the Maghreb, but who knows how he came to that attribution. That would sync up with it being a dervish knife, though.

It more or less looks the same as the one I have, I'll compare the dimensions when it arrives in the mail. I assume the grip's hamster bone like the last one. Judging from how poorly carved it is, it must have been made back when it wasn't a very valuable material.

[spiral]

To me they look like a tourist version of a Reguibat knife from southern Morocco, Mauritania, Mali etc.

spiral

[blue lander]

Are there any pictures of there of the "non-tourist" version of this knife? Google images doesn't come up with anything that looks similar to these.

[blue lander]

New one just came in today, I've attached pictures of it next to my other one. As you can see it's a bit smaller. The overall style is the same with some minor variations, and the carving on the hilt is even more careless than on my other one.

The hilt on my old one is yellowish and a little translucent, the hilt on the new one is whiter and totally opaque. Both pass the "hot needle" test. The blade on my old one is almost black, the blade on the new one is as bright and shiny as a new penny. I take this to mean that my new one was more recently made than my old one. So whatever culture that produced these must have a tradition of making them rather than some weird "one off".

[Shakethetrees]

I have one close to identical to the two you posted. I am in the middle of a big move and will post as soon as find it.

I have always felt it is culturally related to a flyssa- the blade shape and workmanship are too close to coincidental. But, I have been mistaken before, so....

[blue lander]

I'd love to see yours if you find it.

[blue lander]

This "Chinese sword" auction finished recently (I didn't win it), and the grip looks remarkably similar to that of these Maghreb daggers. I suppose it's just coincidence...

[Oliver Pinchot]

Anthropologists who study material cultures term this parallel development. Two or more cultures with similar requirements and levels of technological skill will occasionally develop a very similar object (in this case a dagger or sword grip) for the same purpose. So, in cultures where particular organic materials are readily available (wood, bone, antler, horn or ivory, for example) and stone or metal tools which can rapidly remove softer materials (files, for example) have either been invented by that culture or introduced from another through trade or war, grips with crosshatched surfaces are likely to develop independently. Thus, although the grips look alike, other factors must be considered in order to place them in the same culture. Bladeform is probably the most important distinction here.

[David]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I assume the grip's hamster bone like the last one. Judging from how poorly carved it is, it must have been made back when it wasn't a very valuable material.

Are you assuming this is ivory? I would think something like camel bone would be much more likely, still not a particularly valuable material.

[blue lander]

I'm no expert of course. I did the hot needle test and the material doesn't burn/singe/melt at all. Also it's surprisingly heavy and feels cold to the touch like a stone. And it doesn't have the little black dots/streaks you see in old bones.

I'm sure parallel development is the explanation here. I just thought the similarities were very interesting, especially since these two items seem to have more in common with each other than they do with other swords/knives from their respective regions.

[David]

I'm no expert either Blue, but i think this camel bone hilt looks very similar to the material in the hilt from post #10.

[blue lander]

You're right, they do look identical. Perhaps it is camel bone. If I ever try to sell it I'll definitely categorize it as such.

I have a pipe with a camel bone shaft and it feels like regular bone. This one feels more like a rock.

[David]

Originally Posted by blue lander

You're right, they do look identical. Perhaps it is camel bone. If I ever try to sell it I'll definitely categorize it as such.

Well, given the laws surrounding ivory here in the States you certainly wouldn't want to call it that even if it truly was…

[blue lander]

I bought another pair of these , I don't even know why. These look a little different than the others.

[blue lander]

They just arrived. They appear to be made of the same material as the other two, whatever that is. Attached are two closeups of the hilt.

[blue lander]

An auction recently ended on two more of these, nobody bid on it. These have straight blades and the pattern on the hilt looks a bit different.

[Shakethetrees]

But why are the blades made of brass? It's such an inferior material for this purpose that surely it must be they were symbolic or talismanic, and not functional weapons/tools?

This is a question I've had for years since I found mine!

[fearn]

I don't know about parallel cultural development, but I do know that there are machine lathe tools that can produce that knurled handle pattern. I'd suggest common tool use, not some sort of cultural bond.

[blue lander]

The auction for this ended recently, I didn't bid on it. Is it perhaps related to this form? The hilt looks similar and the blade is copper

[spiral]

Well I vote your know the world expert or interested student on these...., so I think its you who need too tell us where & when there from...

[blue lander]

You're probably right, sadly.

My theory is that this knife is Moroccan because that's what most of the auction listings say. I also believe the knives came in sets of twos because you usually see them in pairs. I also think they've been making them for a long time, and the recent ones are tourist pieces.

So what were the original ones? I wonder if they were part of some sort of Sufi or Shiite self cutting ritual. Would a copper/brass blade be more hygienic than steel? Because of rust.