Jezail 3: Return of the Not-Quite-So-Killer Jezail

RDGAC · 19th April 2012, 03:46 PM

Afternoon, one and all.

Once more I've been quietly beavering away in the background. A quick précis:

After Christmas, I started casting about looking for a means to ensure I remained hard up for the next 12 months (wouldn't want to break a habit of a lifetime). Browsing gunstar one day (just been back - to my utter outrage, there's a somewhat beaten-up Guedes rifle for sale!) I came across a jezail, with what looked like a very handsome barrel, reasonable stock and good-quality (if probably reproduction) lock. After some umming and aahing, I decided irresponsible fiscal policy was the in thing this year and laid down my money. Voila, one rusty jezail to my name.

When I got her home, I started doing the usual - having enormous attacks of buyer's remorse and prodding, in other words. Anyway, I quickly established some salient points, viz.:

Bore: .50in, smoothbore
Barrel length: 40in
Overall length: ~55in
Weight: Reasonable

Then, naturally, I started attacking the thing with screwdrivers. Since the lock's missing its forward sidenail anyway, getting it out is very easy. Out comes the lock - dated 1811, with a rampant lion, so close but no cigar - and it's rusted to hell and back, but seems in reasonable shape. Inletting looks OK, even though the trigger's set very far back (it works, for all that), and aside from the usual shreds of cobweb, bits of dust and so on, it's in fair shape. Except there's a massive crack, propagating from the forward sidenail holes, which I can see despite the sheet brass used to cover it up.

Curiosity piqued, I set about dismantling the gun in earnest - barrel bends are sticky but come off, and the barrel's just gorgeous. But it's weird, too; the touch-hole is blocked, and a false one's been painted on (!) slightly forward of its place. Odd thing to do, say I, and press on. Out comes the barrel, and... ah, right. The stock's completely sheared. Oh well, these things... what, what?! Why is this wood a totally different colour to that wood? Aw man...

You can imagine how my heart sank. I'd been sold a total pup. Massive break in the stock (with traces of evo-stik around it!), blocked-up and very polished barrel, false touch-hole, Afghan lock. I wasn't exactly ecstatic.

However, after a while, and some conferring, I began to think differently.

OK, so the lock's Afghan. It's still a very good replica; the stamped date looks pretty close to the real thing, and the rampant lion's been executed so beautifully, I find myself wondering if some obsolete ex-EIC stamps (which were, presumably, thrown out after the Company's absorption by the Crown) have made their way North-West. It functions cleanly, if slowly (the rust is amazingly thick and tough), without any half-cock grab or firing - a problem that has afflicted both my other jezails. Whoever made it did a very, very good job; some of the screws (which seem to be a weak point on Afghan locks) could pass for contemporary European examples, and everything lines up pretty much straight and true; not at all bad, for someone working by eye, probably with hand tools.

OK, so the barrel's been messed with. Conversation with a few people suggests it was converted to percussion at some point; the hole that's visible (with blockage) is too big to be any kind of touch-hole. Your powder would be down your trousers before you'd finished levelling the thing! It's a shame it was blocked off, but c'est la vie; at least the sellers had the courtesy to paint a fake touch-hole on, bless them. It's more of a pity that they insisted on polishing the barrel to within an inch of its life, which has removed (among other things) all its patina. But it's still a beautiful, wonderful piece of metalworking, and a privilege merely to see.

OK, so the stock's knackered. Best guess thus far is that the butt-stock portion is old; the brass that remains has a nice patina, as does the exterior wood, and the butt area (missing its wooden "butt-plate") shows some nice age darkening. There's hand-polish around the wrist, and the relics of old bearing can be seen in several places, consisting of traced outlines, caused by patina variation, and old nail-holes. The fore-end, by the look of it, is new; the brass plate is there to hide the joint between old and new parts. The sellers obviously thought this one out, since the brass matches pretty much exactly with the part of that new fore-end they didn't slather in wood stain.

It seems likely she's a composite gun, in other words; probably (judging by the closeness of fit), the butt-stock and lock have been together many years, and been married to an old barrel and a new, crude, replacement fore-end. I say this because:

1) The lock matches the butt-stock inletting well, exhibiting a close fit between the plate's tail and the surrounding wood, without filler.

2) The butt-stock and lock both show good signs of age; although relatively uniform, the pitting on the lockplate is not particularly deep or closely-spaced, which suggests it was stored in or exposed to damp for a long while.

3) The barrel is either old (some deep, dark patina still remains on the underside, fortunately - but, alas, no signature yet), or the most beautifully made fake I've yet seen, either in the flesh or in a photograph. Inspection with a bore lamp reveals a lot of corrosion, and several dents, nicks and patches of corrosion are present on the exterior.

4) The barrel and lock don't match up properly, and nor does the stock mate with the barrel very well. The barrel tang looks new, and is very crude compared to the barrel itself; the inletting on the stock has been partly backfilled with that odd brown-black filler seemingly ubiquitous in Afghanistan, though there's only one screw-hole.

I suspect the gun came together thusly:

1) Someone decided he wanted to flog another jezail. He went rummaging around the parts bin, since no pre-made guns were available. Inside, he found a broken butt-stock, with its lock, and a nice barrel. He put them together, but they didn't match up, so...

2) He took the drum and nipple off the barrel and whacked in a bloody great plug with a mallet. Then, he unscrewed the old tang, made a new one out of a bit of bar steel he had lying around, and threaded it up, before turning it in with a pair of pliers. But it still didn't fit properly, so...

3) He took a nice, hard stone (or file, or bit of sandpaper, or whatever came in useful) and started rubbing away at the wood, coincidentally rubbing away any patina it had managed to accumulate over the last century or so, until the barrel fit. He had to rub around the bottom of the barrel, and around the breech plug, and around the tang as well, and that made it all look a bit knackered, so...

4) He grabbed his ubiquitous filler and filled in the gaps, where he could. But that still left him with a broken stock, so...

5) He got a handy bit of pallet wood and sawed and rubbed until it sort-of-fit-ish. He tried to glue it in place, but that didn't work (it kept falling off - Bostik, hang your heads in shame!) so...

6) He divined the idea of wrapping a sheet of brass around it. Not only would it hide the joint, and provide an extra bit of longitudinal strength, but it'd let them save on that expensive Ronseal wood stain. So...

7) He made the new fore-end sort-of-fit, got a big sheet of brass, cut a bit down to size and bent it to fit around the fore-end, thus neatly disguising the huge crack in it. Then he came up with the idea of using a little bit of spare brass to give the thing a sort of nose-cap (nice touch, I think you'll agree - and its sharp edges make it a deadly miniature bayonet).

And so, stepping back to admire their handiwork, our hypothetical gunsmith-cum-carpenter put it up for sale, confident that some idiot with more money than sense would soon turn up. At which point, enter stage left, yours truly!

If the above seems a little cynical... well, it is! But I have to admire their brass (pun fully intended), not to mention the beauty of what remains of the old bits.

RDGAC · 19th April 2012, 04:18 PM

Now, the really interesting question is: what do I do with the old girl now?

I initially found myself a bit overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff to do, to be quite honest. After a while, I realised that the most I can do for now is to prevent things getting any worse, before another fascinating piece of workmanship (or rather, several of them!) falls to bits. To that end I began by starting to gently, with oil and 0000 wire wool, remove the rust from the outer surfaces of the barrel. That, so far, has yielded good results. Close examination has also revealed what may be traces of silver decoration, which I hope to be able to photo soon, towards the muzzle.

My impression is that this barrel is Persian; any comment on that?

The lock has proven challenging. The rust is very, very thick, and bonded very hard to the sound steel. In a few cases, I've soaked the parts in Renaissance Metal De-Corroder, which has thinned the corrosion down to a point where its mechanical removal becomes much easier; however, in view of RMDC's propensity to leave behind a very dull, matte finish, I'm reluctant to use it for anything external, or any internal parts that don't need it.

An interesting feature is the mainspring. This is fairly strong and has no cracks or other flaws; however, a small "bridge" of steel joins together the two arms. I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else had. A quick test scratch with a file confirmed that, under the rust, this is definitely steel. It considerably diminishes the power of the mainspring; once the tip of the long arm has descended sufficiently to push the tumbler beyond half-cock, it seems to place no further downward force on the tumbler. Any ideas?

RDGAC · 17th September 2012, 08:57 PM

Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy.

As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole.

However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

David R · 18th September 2012, 12:58 AM

I have pulled rounds out of very junk looking guns before, ( even gas pipe specials from Kurdistan) so the appearance of the thing is no indication as to it's status. For safeties sake I would assume that it is loaded....
Try a ball screw, basicly a wood screw on a long shaft to pull any lead slugs out. Then a worm, rather like a cork screw, to draw the load.
Alternatively try washing it out with lots of water.
The amount of powder used would vary depending on what was available, and what was the intended target! And even 0.5 ins of a load will take the back of your head off at point blank.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th September 2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RDGAC

Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy.

As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole.

However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

Salaams RDGAC ~ As it happens I was having a cup of tea just this morning only 75 yards down the road where there is a little workshop that fixes guns mainly semi modern stuff post 1940ish. The chap on the floor cushion was hammering away at a new butt and stock arrangement and I asked him about guns ( he is Pakistani from Peshawer ) These people on both sides of the border can make reasonable 303 carbines out of a load of scrap and their forefathers made fake Martini Henrys etc. Their work given a modicum of workshop facilities is excellent. He reckons work like your rifle is conducted regularly but more by the junior workers. The big fake marker is the poorly made trigger guard. Any weapon that has an obviously home made trigger guard is likely to be further played with. It is another trick to stick genuine gun parts and copied parts all together to try to pass off the item as original. Often the butt plate is real or even the barrel. Where there is a band of copper or usually brass around the woodwork it is often split...common behind the trigger where the woodwork is thinner. Sometimes the wood splits because too much powder was used. On other occasions the barrel can blow often at the first weld about a foot from the cannon end..dodgy indeed.

As David points out... You have to consider a charge and a projectile are wedged in the barrel.

You are not the first to take on a largely copied job. I've got one which makes yours look absolutely genuine ! A complete pile of junk ... with everything wrong with it.

Perhaps we need a rogues gallery where all the garbage can be safely lodged and people can go there to check on what not to choose and why.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

David R · 18th September 2012, 06:37 PM

I regularly see junk guns at antique and arms fairs, and if they are cheap enough they can be a nice antique gun kit or a source of spares. Think how much work there is in a good barrel...sometimes worth the money for the whole gun.
Last weekend one of these was being sold at the Birmingham arms fair, but honestly labeled as a "decorative wall hanger".
For a laugh though, here's the lock off one of these I bought a couple of years ago for the sake of the decent, though cut down, rifled octagonal barrel. NB the brass tumbler inside the lock, I think the cock is genuine, and perhaps the lock plate.

rickystl · 21st September 2012, 10:59 PM

I really like the fluted barrel on your gun. Beautiful. Too bad about the breech end. Well, if you plan on restoring, it looks like you have your work cut out for you.
By coincidence, I just purchased a Jezail myself. I plan on restoring this one to a shooter. Mine is rather plain and un-decorated, but it's all there. Even the sling is original. I bought this one because it has a genuine British Barnett trade lock. The butt stock is broke where someone crudely glued it together. The glue is still soft.

The trigger guard is broke - and likely the same person tried to glue that back together.

But it's all repairable. I plan on tackeling this project sometime next year. Too many others to finish at the momment.
Keep us posted as to your progress. Thanks, Rick.

RDGAC · 27th November 2013, 12:08 AM

Well, thread necromancy ahoy. I have recently begun work on this again, after a year's hopeless indecision. My eventual call was to make or have made a new fore-end for the stock. Microscopic examination, courtesy the York Archaeological Trust (very nice folks, for anyone in the area), revealed that the newer part of the stock, the "repair", is made from beech. I didn't know beech grew around Afghanistan, but there it is.

The old, original part, however, is made from something else entirely. Namely, a plant I'd never heard of, "Common dogwood", Cornus sanguinea, apparently native to much of Europe and as far afield as the Caspian Sea. That explains roughly where it came from, at any rate, which seems nice to know.

Now for my question: Does anyone know of anywhere I can get some common dogwood timber? Google has turned up, so far, absolutely nothing suitable; the plant itself is mostly used as an ornamental shrub, obviously not really suitable for making gun stocks!

Ricky: That is a very nice gun, if a bit battered. How's she coming along?

Jim McDougall · 29th November 2013, 10:30 PM

I cant add much on the dogwood, but just wanted to say Im glad you're back and than you for staying with it on this.....I really love this jezail! and it has an incredible charm to it, and I can picture the fantastic history of its home regions. I recall the great discussions we had on that EIC balemark and led to outstanding entries in my own notes.

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 30th November 2013, 05:11 AM

Probably the simplest way to get Cornus sanguinea is to go where it lives, hire someone to legally cut the wood, and repair the gun on location. Then it will be genuine. The second choice is to find Cornus sanguinea growing somewhere in England (where it's been planted) and make a bargain to get the wood you need. Perhaps after someone's cleaning up after a storm or before a development goes in? Then you can dry it (or pay someone to do so) and get to work crafting it.

F

Raf · 30th November 2013, 04:45 PM

I think your being a bit hard on it . Cant immediately see why the lock isnt a bog standard EIC lock ; Windus patern which formed the model for the India pattern Bess. Whats wrong with lock is the native made replacement cast spring which probably never worked properly in the first place. A modern cast steel spring for a India pattern lock will probably fit with a bit of work. Their not expensive compared to making one and are fairly easy to temper. The lock obviously belongs to most of the stock .The barrel as you point out probably doesnt belong to this gun and almost certainly started life as a matchlock .Looks Persian to me. The charm , if thats the right word , of these things is that they have a long and colourfull history and the fact they are invariable marriages of parts of different dates from different cultures is just part of real history.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st December 2013, 11:20 PM

Hello Fern,
Maybe you should explain something about 'drying' whe wood, as I remember that someone long time ago, told me that wood for wood cutting should be at least seventy years old. Wood for this weapon will no doubt not have to as old as that, but it will still have to be dry.
Jens

RDGAC · 2nd December 2013, 11:06 AM

Hi all; Jim, glad to be mooching about again after spending so long in a lather of uncertainty. Figure it's time to give this old girl some TLC. And I still have to think before remembering which is quartered and which is flaunched!

Fearn: Not really very practical for me to go to Iran, to be honest. More's the pity (I'd not mind looking at Ctesiphon) but there it is. I did consider trying to find some cornus sanguinea around here; it certainly seems an option worth considering. I don't know where it grows wild in the UK, but presumably it must do so somewhere. However, I know about as much about working wood as a horse knows about industrial chemistry, so doubtless lots of silly questions to come yet. At least I'd already thought of seasoning (drying) as a problem; at a guess, the best I could do would be to get a reasonable-sized big of dogwood, stick it in a corner somewhere, and leave it to dry for 6 months (or however long is necessary for dogwood).

Amazingly, although the tree itself is apparently relatively common, nobody seems to sell dogwood timber. I can only presume there's no market for the stuff.

Raf: Looking at it since (with the aid of some of the very knowledgeable people at the Brit Mil Forum) has suggested that, yes, it is in fact an EIC lock, albeit with new (and not too good) mainspring. As to replacing that, I'm not sure. Since the odds of this beast ever firing again are slender at best, it seems best to leave it alone, apart from removing corrosion. Had they not made such drastic alterations to the barrel... but ah well. One can't really fault the locals for making a living.

Cheers all,

Meredydd

19th April 2012, 03:46 PM	#1
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Jezail 3: Return of the Not-Quite-So-Killer Jezail Afternoon, one and all. Once more I've been quietly beavering away in the background. A quick précis: After Christmas, I started casting about looking for a means to ensure I remained hard up for the next 12 months (wouldn't want to break a habit of a lifetime). Browsing gunstar one day (just been back - to my utter outrage, there's a somewhat beaten-up Guedes rifle for sale!) I came across a jezail, with what looked like a very handsome barrel, reasonable stock and good-quality (if probably reproduction) lock. After some umming and aahing, I decided irresponsible fiscal policy was the in thing this year and laid down my money. Voila, one rusty jezail to my name. When I got her home, I started doing the usual - having enormous attacks of buyer's remorse and prodding, in other words. Anyway, I quickly established some salient points, viz.: Bore: .50in, smoothbore Barrel length: 40in Overall length: ~55in Weight: Reasonable Then, naturally, I started attacking the thing with screwdrivers. Since the lock's missing its forward sidenail anyway, getting it out is very easy. Out comes the lock - dated 1811, with a rampant lion, so close but no cigar - and it's rusted to hell and back, but seems in reasonable shape. Inletting looks OK, even though the trigger's set very far back (it works, for all that), and aside from the usual shreds of cobweb, bits of dust and so on, it's in fair shape. Except there's a massive crack, propagating from the forward sidenail holes, which I can see despite the sheet brass used to cover it up. Curiosity piqued, I set about dismantling the gun in earnest - barrel bends are sticky but come off, and the barrel's just gorgeous. But it's weird, too; the touch-hole is blocked, and a false one's been painted on (!) slightly forward of its place. Odd thing to do, say I, and press on. Out comes the barrel, and... ah, right. The stock's completely sheared. Oh well, these things... what, what?! Why is this wood a totally different colour to that wood? Aw man... You can imagine how my heart sank. I'd been sold a total pup. Massive break in the stock (with traces of evo-stik around it!), blocked-up and very polished barrel, false touch-hole, Afghan lock. I wasn't exactly ecstatic. However, after a while, and some conferring, I began to think differently. OK, so the lock's Afghan. It's still a very good replica; the stamped date looks pretty close to the real thing, and the rampant lion's been executed so beautifully, I find myself wondering if some obsolete ex-EIC stamps (which were, presumably, thrown out after the Company's absorption by the Crown) have made their way North-West. It functions cleanly, if slowly (the rust is amazingly thick and tough), without any half-cock grab or firing - a problem that has afflicted both my other jezails. Whoever made it did a very, very good job; some of the screws (which seem to be a weak point on Afghan locks) could pass for contemporary European examples, and everything lines up pretty much straight and true; not at all bad, for someone working by eye, probably with hand tools. OK, so the barrel's been messed with. Conversation with a few people suggests it was converted to percussion at some point; the hole that's visible (with blockage) is too big to be any kind of touch-hole. Your powder would be down your trousers before you'd finished levelling the thing! It's a shame it was blocked off, but c'est la vie; at least the sellers had the courtesy to paint a fake touch-hole on, bless them. It's more of a pity that they insisted on polishing the barrel to within an inch of its life, which has removed (among other things) all its patina. But it's still a beautiful, wonderful piece of metalworking, and a privilege merely to see. OK, so the stock's knackered. Best guess thus far is that the butt-stock portion is old; the brass that remains has a nice patina, as does the exterior wood, and the butt area (missing its wooden "butt-plate") shows some nice age darkening. There's hand-polish around the wrist, and the relics of old bearing can be seen in several places, consisting of traced outlines, caused by patina variation, and old nail-holes. The fore-end, by the look of it, is new; the brass plate is there to hide the joint between old and new parts. The sellers obviously thought this one out, since the brass matches pretty much exactly with the part of that new fore-end they didn't slather in wood stain. It seems likely she's a composite gun, in other words; probably (judging by the closeness of fit), the butt-stock and lock have been together many years, and been married to an old barrel and a new, crude, replacement fore-end. I say this because: 1) The lock matches the butt-stock inletting well, exhibiting a close fit between the plate's tail and the surrounding wood, without filler. 2) The butt-stock and lock both show good signs of age; although relatively uniform, the pitting on the lockplate is not particularly deep or closely-spaced, which suggests it was stored in or exposed to damp for a long while. 3) The barrel is either old (some deep, dark patina still remains on the underside, fortunately - but, alas, no signature yet), or the most beautifully made fake I've yet seen, either in the flesh or in a photograph. Inspection with a bore lamp reveals a lot of corrosion, and several dents, nicks and patches of corrosion are present on the exterior. 4) The barrel and lock don't match up properly, and nor does the stock mate with the barrel very well. The barrel tang looks new, and is very crude compared to the barrel itself; the inletting on the stock has been partly backfilled with that odd brown-black filler seemingly ubiquitous in Afghanistan, though there's only one screw-hole. I suspect the gun came together thusly: 1) Someone decided he wanted to flog another jezail. He went rummaging around the parts bin, since no pre-made guns were available. Inside, he found a broken butt-stock, with its lock, and a nice barrel. He put them together, but they didn't match up, so... 2) He took the drum and nipple off the barrel and whacked in a bloody great plug with a mallet. Then, he unscrewed the old tang, made a new one out of a bit of bar steel he had lying around, and threaded it up, before turning it in with a pair of pliers. But it still didn't fit properly, so... 3) He took a nice, hard stone (or file, or bit of sandpaper, or whatever came in useful) and started rubbing away at the wood, coincidentally rubbing away any patina it had managed to accumulate over the last century or so, until the barrel fit. He had to rub around the bottom of the barrel, and around the breech plug, and around the tang as well, and that made it all look a bit knackered, so... 4) He grabbed his ubiquitous filler and filled in the gaps, where he could. But that still left him with a broken stock, so... 5) He got a handy bit of pallet wood and sawed and rubbed until it sort-of-fit-ish. He tried to glue it in place, but that didn't work (it kept falling off - Bostik, hang your heads in shame!) so... 6) He divined the idea of wrapping a sheet of brass around it. Not only would it hide the joint, and provide an extra bit of longitudinal strength, but it'd let them save on that expensive Ronseal wood stain. So... 7) He made the new fore-end sort-of-fit, got a big sheet of brass, cut a bit down to size and bent it to fit around the fore-end, thus neatly disguising the huge crack in it. Then he came up with the idea of using a little bit of spare brass to give the thing a sort of nose-cap (nice touch, I think you'll agree - and its sharp edges make it a deadly miniature bayonet). And so, stepping back to admire their handiwork, our hypothetical gunsmith-cum-carpenter put it up for sale, confident that some idiot with more money than sense would soon turn up. At which point, enter stage left, yours truly! If the above seems a little cynical... well, it is! But I have to admire their brass (pun fully intended), not to mention the beauty of what remains of the old bits. Attached Images Last edited by RDGAC; 19th April 2012 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Tone was probably wrong for this forum.

19th April 2012, 04:18 PM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Now, the really interesting question is: what do I do with the old girl now? I initially found myself a bit overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff to do, to be quite honest. After a while, I realised that the most I can do for now is to prevent things getting any worse, before another fascinating piece of workmanship (or rather, several of them!) falls to bits. To that end I began by starting to gently, with oil and 0000 wire wool, remove the rust from the outer surfaces of the barrel. That, so far, has yielded good results. Close examination has also revealed what may be traces of silver decoration, which I hope to be able to photo soon, towards the muzzle. My impression is that this barrel is Persian; any comment on that? The lock has proven challenging. The rust is very, very thick, and bonded very hard to the sound steel. In a few cases, I've soaked the parts in Renaissance Metal De-Corroder, which has thinned the corrosion down to a point where its mechanical removal becomes much easier; however, in view of RMDC's propensity to leave behind a very dull, matte finish, I'm reluctant to use it for anything external, or any internal parts that don't need it. An interesting feature is the mainspring. This is fairly strong and has no cracks or other flaws; however, a small "bridge" of steel joins together the two arms. I've never seen this before, and was wondering if anyone else had. A quick test scratch with a file confirmed that, under the rust, this is definitely steel. It considerably diminishes the power of the mainspring; once the tip of the long arm has descended sufficiently to push the tumbler beyond half-cock, it seems to place no further downward force on the tumbler. Any ideas? Attached Images

17th September 2012, 08:57 PM	#3
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Typical charges Right, maybe a pointless or silly question ahoy. As I always do, when I got this musket I had a prod down the bore with a long dowel (the ramrod being absent), and theorised that the process of spiking/stopping the barrel up had left a blockage which resulted in the dowel stopping around 1in short of where it probably should, based on the position of the spoked touch-hole/channel hole. However, further checks have made me more cautious; I now suspect that there may be a charge and/or projectile remaining in the barrel. With that in mind, I wondered if anyone knows roughly how long a fairly typical load for a .50in musket such as this would be, i.e., how much of the bore's volume would it fill? A charge with a "length" of one inch - or, if there's a 0.5in projectile atop it, 0.5in - seems fairly small to me, but I've very little experience to go from. My first jezail (c. 1870, 20 bore/0.6in) was loaded with a charge with a length of around 1.5-1.75in, as I recall; that's about all I have to go on.

18th September 2012, 06:37 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I regularly see junk guns at antique and arms fairs, and if they are cheap enough they can be a nice antique gun kit or a source of spares. Think how much work there is in a good barrel...sometimes worth the money for the whole gun. Last weekend one of these was being sold at the Birmingham arms fair, but honestly labeled as a "decorative wall hanger". For a laugh though, here's the lock off one of these I bought a couple of years ago for the sake of the decent, though cut down, rifled octagonal barrel. NB the brass tumbler inside the lock, I think the cock is genuine, and perhaps the lock plate. Attached Images

21st September 2012, 10:59 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I really like the fluted barrel on your gun. Beautiful. Too bad about the breech end. Well, if you plan on restoring, it looks like you have your work cut out for you. By coincidence, I just purchased a Jezail myself. I plan on restoring this one to a shooter. Mine is rather plain and un-decorated, but it's all there. Even the sling is original. I bought this one because it has a genuine British Barnett trade lock. The butt stock is broke where someone crudely glued it together. The glue is still soft. The trigger guard is broke - and likely the same person tried to glue that back together. But it's all repairable. I plan on tackeling this project sometime next year. Too many others to finish at the momment. Keep us posted as to your progress. Thanks, Rick. Attached Images

18th September 2012, 12:58 AM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	I have pulled rounds out of very junk looking guns before, ( even gas pipe specials from Kurdistan) so the appearance of the thing is no indication as to it's status. For safeties sake I would assume that it is loaded.... Try a ball screw, basicly a wood screw on a long shaft to pull any lead slugs out. Then a worm, rather like a cork screw, to draw the load. Alternatively try washing it out with lots of water. The amount of powder used would vary depending on what was available, and what was the intended target! And even 0.5 ins of a load will take the back of your head off at point blank.

27th November 2013, 12:08 AM	#8
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Well, thread necromancy ahoy. I have recently begun work on this again, after a year's hopeless indecision. My eventual call was to make or have made a new fore-end for the stock. Microscopic examination, courtesy the York Archaeological Trust (very nice folks, for anyone in the area), revealed that the newer part of the stock, the "repair", is made from beech. I didn't know beech grew around Afghanistan, but there it is. The old, original part, however, is made from something else entirely. Namely, a plant I'd never heard of, "Common dogwood", Cornus sanguinea, apparently native to much of Europe and as far afield as the Caspian Sea. That explains roughly where it came from, at any rate, which seems nice to know. Now for my question: Does anyone know of anywhere I can get some common dogwood timber? Google has turned up, so far, absolutely nothing suitable; the plant itself is mostly used as an ornamental shrub, obviously not really suitable for making gun stocks! Ricky: That is a very nice gun, if a bit battered. How's she coming along?

29th November 2013, 10:30 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	I cant add much on the dogwood, but just wanted to say Im glad you're back and than you for staying with it on this.....I really love this jezail! and it has an incredible charm to it, and I can picture the fantastic history of its home regions. I recall the great discussions we had on that EIC balemark and led to outstanding entries in my own notes. All the best, Jim

30th November 2013, 05:11 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Probably the simplest way to get Cornus sanguinea is to go where it lives, hire someone to legally cut the wood, and repair the gun on location. Then it will be genuine. The second choice is to find Cornus sanguinea growing somewhere in England (where it's been planted) and make a bargain to get the wood you need. Perhaps after someone's cleaning up after a storm or before a development goes in? Then you can dry it (or pay someone to do so) and get to work crafting it. F

30th November 2013, 04:45 PM	#11
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	I think your being a bit hard on it . Cant immediately see why the lock isnt a bog standard EIC lock ; Windus patern which formed the model for the India pattern Bess. Whats wrong with lock is the native made replacement cast spring which probably never worked properly in the first place. A modern cast steel spring for a India pattern lock will probably fit with a bit of work. Their not expensive compared to making one and are fairly easy to temper. The lock obviously belongs to most of the stock .The barrel as you point out probably doesnt belong to this gun and almost certainly started life as a matchlock .Looks Persian to me. The charm , if thats the right word , of these things is that they have a long and colourfull history and the fact they are invariable marriages of parts of different dates from different cultures is just part of real history.

1st December 2013, 11:20 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hello Fern, Maybe you should explain something about 'drying' whe wood, as I remember that someone long time ago, told me that wood for wood cutting should be at least seventy years old. Wood for this weapon will no doubt not have to as old as that, but it will still have to be dry. Jens

2nd December 2013, 11:06 AM	#13
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Hi all; Jim, glad to be mooching about again after spending so long in a lather of uncertainty. Figure it's time to give this old girl some TLC. And I still have to think before remembering which is quartered and which is flaunched! Fearn: Not really very practical for me to go to Iran, to be honest. More's the pity (I'd not mind looking at Ctesiphon) but there it is. I did consider trying to find some cornus sanguinea around here; it certainly seems an option worth considering. I don't know where it grows wild in the UK, but presumably it must do so somewhere. However, I know about as much about working wood as a horse knows about industrial chemistry, so doubtless lots of silly questions to come yet. At least I'd already thought of seasoning (drying) as a problem; at a guess, the best I could do would be to get a reasonable-sized big of dogwood, stick it in a corner somewhere, and leave it to dry for 6 months (or however long is necessary for dogwood). Amazingly, although the tree itself is apparently relatively common, nobody seems to sell dogwood timber. I can only presume there's no market for the stuff. Raf: Looking at it since (with the aid of some of the very knowledgeable people at the Brit Mil Forum) has suggested that, yes, it is in fact an EIC lock, albeit with new (and not too good) mainspring. As to replacing that, I'm not sure. Since the odds of this beast ever firing again are slender at best, it seems best to leave it alone, apart from removing corrosion. Had they not made such drastic alterations to the barrel... but ah well. One can't really fault the locals for making a living. Cheers all, Meredydd Last edited by RDGAC; 2nd December 2013 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Forgot how this place does italics!