Is this a THAI or BURMESE Shield?

CharlesS · 9th September 2010, 08:43 PM

Almost certainly 19th Century, I thought at first this was wood, but now believed it is carefully shaped hide that has been heavily lacquered and painted. The rear is reinforced with a hardwood rib which also serves as the handle.

But....is it Thai or Burmese???...and what characteristics would define it as such???

Thanks in advance for any input.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 01:44 AM

Damm, Charles...that is one badass shield!!! Where can I get one!! Beautiful depiction on the front. Reminds me of the Chinese Fu Dogs/Lion/ Evil tempered Pekinese dog

That is an interesting looking bone in his mouth...some sort of forked arrow/ scepter/ pole arm.

Regarding if it's Thai or Burmese, I'm not entirely sure...I really haven't seen any shields like this from Burma that are as ornate, but not to say they don't exist....most shields I've seen pictures of the Northern Burmese ethnic groups...Naga, Kachin, etc and infinite sub groups which are not as ornate. Obviously though by the highly skilled and diverse craftsmanship seen in the Dha from the ethnic groups in Burma, this level of skill was present.

As I brought up earlier in a thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11786

It is puzzling why we don't see more examples of Burmese weapons other than swords...muskets, shields, pole arms brought back by UK soldiers & colonist....or Thai examples from early Portuguese, Dutch traders...followed by English, French, etc

Talking with Michael Charney, he reminded me that some Thai artisans where brought back to Burma during various raids and sacks throughout Thailand...therefore some crafts are similar...and that what we think of Thailand & Burma didn't exist then but really more of a loose collection of tribes and states that borders and rulers frequently changed alliance...eg...The city state of Chiang Mai frequently changed alliance between Ayutthaya and Burma.

Wow, what a stunning shield...thanks for sharing!

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 01:46 AM

Charles, I was wondering if you could list the specs on this shield? Height, width, weight ???

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 01:55 AM

Charles, I would love to hear what our Thai forum members Bancha & Puff would comment. My feeling is the shield is Thai...Central Thai.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 01:56 AM

CharlesS · 10th September 2010, 01:58 AM

I'd say that pic speaks volumes...any specific info on the photo??

CharlesS · 10th September 2010, 02:00 AM

Interesting...the swords the elephant handlers are carrying are not dha/daab(note the European style hilts), but the shield bearers do appear to be carrying them.

Mark · 10th September 2010, 02:07 AM

I think it is a Thai khen. Beautiful shield.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I think it is a Thai khen. Beautiful shield.

Or would it be classified as a daang?

From the DRI, I found these terms for shield:

dang: a large wooden shield used in Thailand, often elaborately painted (also dheng, dhung); see also daab dang.

daab dang (dheng): (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a large, rectangular shield ("dang/dheng").

khen: small, round hide or metal shield or buckler used in Thailand, often elaborately painted; see also daab khen.

daab khen: (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a buckler ("khen").

The term for shield I know in Thai is "Lo" so one to add to the list

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

I'd say that pic speaks volumes...any specific info on the photo??

I can't remember the specifics of the photo...let me do some searching.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Interesting...the swords the elephant handlers are carrying are not dha/daab(note the European style hilts), but the shield bearers do appear to be carrying them.

European style swords they call Krabi.

Note also that there are two different types of shields in the picture...one narrow one, among the larger rectangular ones.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 04:09 AM

Thai shields & spears from a Thai palace...I think you will especial like these next photos, Charles...

There you go...

Last one is pretty similar to the one you have...I see some Chinese influence.. Chinese coins in the middle bottom of the last photo.

As you can see your's Charles is in fantastic condition compared to the above.

Nathaniel · 10th September 2010, 04:20 AM

and also the forked item in his mouth...not really sure what it is...but I've seen something like it....

CharlesS · 14th September 2010, 02:27 PM

I think this just continues to confirm our original theory that the shield is Thai.

Thanks for the terrific pics!!

DhaDha · 14th September 2010, 11:09 PM

Congratulations. I've never seen one that well kept. Those are great pics Nathaniel, thanks for posting.

Gavin Nugent · 15th September 2010, 06:28 AM

Great shield Charles, I commend you on your taste.

Nathaniel, you always share the most interesting pictures, thank you.

Gav

Mark · 15th September 2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Or would it be classified as a daang?

From the DRI, I found these terms for shield:

dang: a large wooden shield used in Thailand, often elaborately painted (also dheng, dhung); see also daab dang.

daab dang (dheng): (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a large, rectangular shield ("dang/dheng").

khen: small, round hide or metal shield or buckler used in Thailand, often elaborately painted; see also daab khen.

daab khen: (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a buckler ("khen").

The term for shield I know in Thai is "Lo" so one to add to the list

You are right, definitely a dheng. Got my wires crossed there (getting old is a drag).

Andrew · 15th September 2010, 07:04 PM

It's okay, Mark--that DRI guy is smart.

Andrew · 15th September 2010, 07:05 PM

Oh, btw, Charles--awesome sheild. Thanks for sharing it.

Gavin Nugent · 16th September 2010, 01:51 AM

I have read the Khen is also of this shape but narrower and the Loh is the round Dhal type. Can further clarity be offered on this please.

Gav

Nathaniel · 16th September 2010, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

I have read the Khen is also of this shape but narrower and the Loh is the round Dhal type. Can further clarity be offered on this please.

Gav

I agree...Any Thai forum members to shed some light? I'd also like to know what the forked thing is too!?

Nathaniel · 16th September 2010, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

You are right, definitely a dheng. Got my wires crossed there (getting old is a drag).

Good thing you wrote it down! I know I would have to... Very thankful for the information you have up on DRI. Where did you get all the Thai terminology from? I know I was surprised to see kind of specific.

Like:

daab dang (dheng): (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a large, rectangular shield ("dang/dheng").

daab khen: (Thai) a daab used one-handed with a buckler ("khen").

daab lo: (Thai) daab used with a sheild.

I wonder how the swords might differ then? Depending on the type of shield used? I imagine this could make sense different sword and shield paired ideally for certain benefits/ conditions/ different branch/ type of soldier unit...it would be great to have pictures/ further information to identify what each would look like and why!

PUFF · 9th October 2010, 06:26 AM

daab dang (dheng):
daab khen:
daab lo:

These terms are more related to combat units in troop formation rather than a specific type of Dahb paired with a type of shield.

The terms are often found on old Siamese book of war.

These are examples of Dahb with different type of shields (photo taken from The National Museum).
Dahb with Khen

Dahb with Dunk

Round shields were used in this area in 12C.

PUFF · 9th October 2010, 06:39 AM

Please be noted that the paired Dahb with shields in the museum may not very accurate.

Also terms Loh, Dunk, Kehn are often confused even among Thai people.
Scholars often refer
Loh : any type of shields
Dunk : rectangular shields
Kehn : round shields

Modern Krabi Krabong School often refer
Loh : round shields
Dunk : rectangular shields
Kehn : rectangular shields

...

Nathaniel · 9th October 2010, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

daab dang (dheng):
daab khen:
daab lo:

These terms are more related to combat units in troop formation rather than a specific type of Dahb paired with a type of shield.

Ah, I just wondered because I had read about the Chinese sword used with Chinese rattan shields are more curved but this was due to fighting incoming calvary....this is just an example. I would assume that in Thailand there was not as much use of calvary?!? Or at least I have not seen much about it.

See Use
http://forum.grtc.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=754

Nathaniel · 9th October 2010, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Please be noted that the paired Dahb with shields in the museum may not very accurate.

Also terms Loh, Dunk, Kehn are often confused even among Thai people.
Scholars often refer
Loh : any type of shields
Dunk : rectangular shields
Kehn : round shields

Modern Krabi Krabong School often refer
Loh : round shields
Dunk : rectangular shields
Kehn : rectangular shields

...

K.Puff, I do not know very much about use of shields, but do you know if there was one shape of the shield better for certain situations/ certain shape shield used for different unit of the military due to their function/ role?

9th September 2010, 08:43 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Is this a THAI or BURMESE Shield? Almost certainly 19th Century, I thought at first this was wood, but now believed it is carefully shaped hide that has been heavily lacquered and painted. The rear is reinforced with a hardwood rib which also serves as the handle. But....is it Thai or Burmese???...and what characteristics would define it as such??? Thanks in advance for any input. Attached Images

10th September 2010, 01:44 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Damm, Charles...that is one badass shield!!! Where can I get one!! Beautiful depiction on the front. Reminds me of the Chinese Fu Dogs/Lion/ Evil tempered Pekinese dog That is an interesting looking bone in his mouth...some sort of forked arrow/ scepter/ pole arm. Regarding if it's Thai or Burmese, I'm not entirely sure...I really haven't seen any shields like this from Burma that are as ornate, but not to say they don't exist....most shields I've seen pictures of the Northern Burmese ethnic groups...Naga, Kachin, etc and infinite sub groups which are not as ornate. Obviously though by the highly skilled and diverse craftsmanship seen in the Dha from the ethnic groups in Burma, this level of skill was present. As I brought up earlier in a thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11786 It is puzzling why we don't see more examples of Burmese weapons other than swords...muskets, shields, pole arms brought back by UK soldiers & colonist....or Thai examples from early Portuguese, Dutch traders...followed by English, French, etc Talking with Michael Charney, he reminded me that some Thai artisans where brought back to Burma during various raids and sacks throughout Thailand...therefore some crafts are similar...and that what we think of Thailand & Burma didn't exist then but really more of a loose collection of tribes and states that borders and rulers frequently changed alliance...eg...The city state of Chiang Mai frequently changed alliance between Ayutthaya and Burma. Wow, what a stunning shield...thanks for sharing! Last edited by Nathaniel; 10th September 2010 at 03:14 PM.

10th September 2010, 01:46 AM	#3
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Charles, I was wondering if you could list the specs on this shield? Height, width, weight ??? Last edited by Nathaniel; 10th September 2010 at 06:14 AM.

10th September 2010, 04:09 AM	#12
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thai shields & spears from a Thai palace...I think you will especial like these next photos, Charles... There you go... Last one is pretty similar to the one you have...I see some Chinese influence.. Chinese coins in the middle bottom of the last photo. As you can see your's Charles is in fantastic condition compared to the above. Last edited by Nathaniel; 10th September 2010 at 03:18 PM.

15th September 2010, 06:28 AM	#16
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Nice Great shield Charles, I commend you on your taste. Nathaniel, you always share the most interesting pictures, thank you. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 15th September 2010 at 06:51 AM. Reason: additional credits

10th September 2010, 01:55 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Charles, I would love to hear what our Thai forum members Bancha & Puff would comment. My feeling is the shield is Thai...Central Thai.

10th September 2010, 01:56 AM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865

10th September 2010, 01:58 AM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I'd say that pic speaks volumes...any specific info on the photo??

10th September 2010, 02:00 AM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Interesting...the swords the elephant handlers are carrying are not dha/daab(note the European style hilts), but the shield bearers do appear to be carrying them.

10th September 2010, 02:07 AM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I think it is a Thai khen. Beautiful shield.

10th September 2010, 04:20 AM	#13
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	and also the forked item in his mouth...not really sure what it is...but I've seen something like it....

14th September 2010, 02:27 PM	#14
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	I think this just continues to confirm our original theory that the shield is Thai. Thanks for the terrific pics!!

14th September 2010, 11:09 PM	#15
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	Congratulations. I've never seen one that well kept. Those are great pics Nathaniel, thanks for posting.

15th September 2010, 07:04 PM	#18
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	It's okay, Mark--that DRI guy is smart.

15th September 2010, 07:05 PM	#19
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Oh, btw, Charles--awesome sheild. Thanks for sharing it.

16th September 2010, 01:51 AM	#20
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Clarity please... I have read the Khen is also of this shape but narrower and the Loh is the round Dhal type. Can further clarity be offered on this please. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 16th September 2010 at 02:05 AM.

9th October 2010, 06:26 AM	#23
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	daab dang (dheng): daab khen: daab lo: These terms are more related to combat units in troop formation rather than a specific type of Dahb paired with a type of shield. The terms are often found on old Siamese book of war. These are examples of Dahb with different type of shields (photo taken from The National Museum). Dahb with Khen Dahb with Dunk Round shields were used in this area in 12C.

9th October 2010, 06:39 AM	#24
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Please be noted that the paired Dahb with shields in the museum may not very accurate. Also terms Loh, Dunk, Kehn are often confused even among Thai people. Scholars often refer Loh : any type of shields Dunk : rectangular shields Kehn : round shields Modern Krabi Krabong School often refer Loh : round shields Dunk : rectangular shields Kehn : rectangular shields ...