Mahdi Spear Head?

FenrisWolf · 17th March 2007, 05:07 AM

African/Sudanese spearhead, I picked up four spearheads together, two with barbs and two with slender thrusting blades. I've seen at least one source that attributed these nasty buggers with all the barbs to the Mahdi's forces, that they were one of the 'terror weapons' favored by them:

Personally I can't see this as being terribly practical, scary looking as all get-out, but having your spear stuck in an opponent in the middle of a battle can leave you disarmed and suffering a slight case of death....

kronckew · 17th March 2007, 05:35 AM

they could have had a few of them as javelins, and intended them to stick in whatever they hit so they could not be removed and thrown back, the lower reversed barbs would keep it from being pushed all the way thru for removal, while the main barbs would be a bit nasty going either way. as stated, can't see them being a practical main weapon with them barbs.....

they must be fun to dust & keep oiled.........

FenrisWolf · 17th March 2007, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

they could have had a few of them as javelins, and intended them to stick in whatever they hit so they could not be removed and thrown back, the lower reversed barbs would keep it from being pushed all the way thru for removal, while the main barbs would be a bit nasty going either way. as stated, can't see them being a practical main weapon with them barbs.....

they must be fun to dust & keep oiled.........

Which is why most of the time they're covered in a nice protective lyer of cobwebs....

I have three of them, two of similar size (like this one) and one that's very much in keeping with the idea of a javelin tip, about 7" long overall with a needle-like tip and the two-directional barbs down the shaft. I'll post pics of the others later, as well as the barb-free versions....

Lew · 17th March 2007, 05:58 AM

FenrisWolf

What makes you think that this is a Sudanese spear?

Lew

FenrisWolf · 17th March 2007, 06:53 AM

That is how they were sold to me, four spear heads collected in North Africa and the Sudan, from the estate of a Texas oilman who worked over there back in the 1960s. The shape of the leaf blade is certainly reminscent of the disk pommel arm daggers from the same region.

kronckew · 17th March 2007, 08:42 AM

winston churchill of course took part in the battle of omdurman, his account is very good. see This Linky

there are references to throwing spears and wounded soldiers returning from the battle with "fish hook spears" still stuck in their bodies.

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2007, 09:48 AM

These look more like the spears from the South Sudan, not really the same folk. As in todays conflict there. They do not look typical of the Mahdist followers spears I have seen. The leaf blade part is quite similar so like with most "tribal/ethnographic" weapons drawing lines is not always a good idea.

Pukka Bundook · 17th March 2007, 03:18 PM

I can imagine recovering your spears After the battle wouldn't be much fun, ...
Be all stuck up with bits of meat and all kinds of things!

But if the aim was to create the "lions claw" effect,...just leave the thing 'loaded' for the next victim!

FenrisWolf · 17th March 2007, 05:51 PM

Here are the other three spear heads that came in the same batch:

Given the size of the army that was fielded by the Mahdi at Omduran, it's likely he had troops from all over the Sudan/North Africa, not to mention the logistics of trying to keep them all armed and ready for battle. I can't imagine a warrior about to go into battle is going to be too fussed over what part of the Sudan his spear came from, so long as it has a pointy end to stick into his opponent.

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2007, 08:04 PM

These are outstanding acquisitions Fenris! and they are indeed Mahdist associated spears, as has been mentioned. You are right that the Mahdist forces were highly comprehensive, with members from many regions that included the south, west and Nuba mountains. Interestingly many of the Sudanese spears had shafts of bamboo which came from the Nuba Mountains.
The battalion sized units that comprised these components of the vast forces were termed 'rubs'. The warriors among these forces were referred by the Mahdi as 'Ansar' (= helper, as described in Koran as disciples of the Prophet), while the British applied the term 'Dervish' taken from religious mystics they had encountered in the Levant.

In the exhibition of Sudanese material in Austria in Nov,2001- Oct 2002 (Lenz & Schallaburg) Tim Kendall described some of these barbed spears as having a variety of points or viscious flesh tearing barbs or a combination of the two and that these were designed to be hurled at close range.

Many of the longer stabbing spears had very wide leaf shaped points, which also caused horrific wounds. There are also extremely large points which are actually excessive for actual stabbing, which are typically highly decorated with inscriptions and motif and are termed 'alem' .These I am told were actually used as standards to rally forces during battle, as they were so large as to be seen when held up as focal point.

Very nice spears you got, but I'd hate to be on the wrong end of one of 'em

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 17th March 2007, 08:12 PM

They don't like it up em! as Corporal Jones would say. Cpl Jone a character in a long running UK TV program called "dads army" about the Home Guard during ww2. Cpl Jones was a veteran from the Sudan wars. He meant the bayonet.

Pukka Bundook · 18th March 2007, 04:20 AM

Tim,
I've lived in Canada 23 yrs now, but Still remember Corporal Jones very well!........And I suppose they Still "don't like it up 'em!"

FenrisWolf · 18th March 2007, 06:32 AM

Forgot about this one; it came into my hands separately. My father picked it up for me at a little antique shop in Northern California, where it was labelled a 'salmon fishing spear'. I didn't know they had salmon runs in the Sudan!?!

8 1/2" long with an almost black patina, and the little barbs are damned near as sharp as the day they were forged. Shaft is a replacement piece of bamboo I happened to have lying around, good to hear it's appropriate to the piece....

17th March 2007, 05:07 AM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Mahdi Spear Head? African/Sudanese spearhead, I picked up four spearheads together, two with barbs and two with slender thrusting blades. I've seen at least one source that attributed these nasty buggers with all the barbs to the Mahdi's forces, that they were one of the 'terror weapons' favored by them: Personally I can't see this as being terribly practical, scary looking as all get-out, but having your spear stuck in an opponent in the middle of a battle can leave you disarmed and suffering a slight case of death....

17th March 2007, 05:35 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,167	they could have had a few of them as javelins, and intended them to stick in whatever they hit so they could not be removed and thrown back, the lower reversed barbs would keep it from being pushed all the way thru for removal, while the main barbs would be a bit nasty going either way. as stated, can't see them being a practical main weapon with them barbs..... they must be fun to dust & keep oiled.........

17th March 2007, 05:58 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	FenrisWolf What makes you think that this is a Sudanese spear? Lew

17th March 2007, 06:53 AM	#5
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	That is how they were sold to me, four spear heads collected in North Africa and the Sudan, from the estate of a Texas oilman who worked over there back in the 1960s. The shape of the leaf blade is certainly reminscent of the disk pommel arm daggers from the same region.

17th March 2007, 08:42 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,167	winston churchill of course took part in the battle of omdurman, his account is very good. see This Linky there are references to throwing spears and wounded soldiers returning from the battle with "fish hook spears" still stuck in their bodies.

17th March 2007, 09:48 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,776	These look more like the spears from the South Sudan, not really the same folk. As in todays conflict there. They do not look typical of the Mahdist followers spears I have seen. The leaf blade part is quite similar so like with most "tribal/ethnographic" weapons drawing lines is not always a good idea.

17th March 2007, 03:18 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I can imagine recovering your spears After the battle wouldn't be much fun, ... Be all stuck up with bits of meat and all kinds of things! But if the aim was to create the "lions claw" effect,...just leave the thing 'loaded' for the next victim!

17th March 2007, 05:51 PM	#9
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Here are the other three spear heads that came in the same batch: Given the size of the army that was fielded by the Mahdi at Omduran, it's likely he had troops from all over the Sudan/North Africa, not to mention the logistics of trying to keep them all armed and ready for battle. I can't imagine a warrior about to go into battle is going to be too fussed over what part of the Sudan his spear came from, so long as it has a pointy end to stick into his opponent.

17th March 2007, 08:04 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,894	These are outstanding acquisitions Fenris! and they are indeed Mahdist associated spears, as has been mentioned. You are right that the Mahdist forces were highly comprehensive, with members from many regions that included the south, west and Nuba mountains. Interestingly many of the Sudanese spears had shafts of bamboo which came from the Nuba Mountains. The battalion sized units that comprised these components of the vast forces were termed 'rubs'. The warriors among these forces were referred by the Mahdi as 'Ansar' (= helper, as described in Koran as disciples of the Prophet), while the British applied the term 'Dervish' taken from religious mystics they had encountered in the Levant. In the exhibition of Sudanese material in Austria in Nov,2001- Oct 2002 (Lenz & Schallaburg) Tim Kendall described some of these barbed spears as having a variety of points or viscious flesh tearing barbs or a combination of the two and that these were designed to be hurled at close range. Many of the longer stabbing spears had very wide leaf shaped points, which also caused horrific wounds. There are also extremely large points which are actually excessive for actual stabbing, which are typically highly decorated with inscriptions and motif and are termed 'alem' .These I am told were actually used as standards to rally forces during battle, as they were so large as to be seen when held up as focal point. Very nice spears you got, but I'd hate to be on the wrong end of one of 'em All the best, Jim

17th March 2007, 08:12 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,776	They don't like it up em! as Corporal Jones would say. Cpl Jone a character in a long running UK TV program called "dads army" about the Home Guard during ww2. Cpl Jones was a veteran from the Sudan wars. He meant the bayonet.

18th March 2007, 04:20 AM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Tim, I've lived in Canada 23 yrs now, but Still remember Corporal Jones very well!........And I suppose they Still "don't like it up 'em!"

18th March 2007, 06:32 AM	#13
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Forgot about this one; it came into my hands separately. My father picked it up for me at a little antique shop in Northern California, where it was labelled a 'salmon fishing spear'. I didn't know they had salmon runs in the Sudan!?! 8 1/2" long with an almost black patina, and the little barbs are damned near as sharp as the day they were forged. Shaft is a replacement piece of bamboo I happened to have lying around, good to hear it's appropriate to the piece....