Sword Blade dates? or Mysterious Gematria?

[Jim McDougall]

On many sword blades, there are numbers boldly inscribed which are often assumed to be dates for the blade, sometimes presumed to be significant for memorable events. Through the years arms scholars have studied these distinct numbers and realized that the consistant appearance of many of these appear to be numeric combinations rather than actual dates.

The most prevalent of these numbers seem to be 1414 and 1441, and there is a degree of material concerning this apparant phenomenon discussed by Eduard Wagner in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (1967) on. p.76.

He mentions the work by Walter Rose, in "Zeitschrift fur Historische Waffen und Kostumkunde" (Vol. 14, 1935-36,p.131 ) titled ,
"Die Klingenmarke 1414 (1441) and Related Numerical Signs".
In this article, the author suggests that these numbers may be the sum of certain numbers such as 7+7+7+7, the number 7 lucky and the sum perhaps talismanically compounded. He also hints at the possibility of recording of dates of famous events.

Wagner notes further that these numbers often appear with the famed 'running wolf' marking, which would seem to emphasize my personal belief in that particular marking being talismanic in nature. The use of other numbers, not as commonly seen is noted by Wagner as associated with particular German makers; Johannes Wundes -1479, Johannes Keuller-1495, Meves Berns-1506, Johnann Hartkop-1506, Mathias Wundes-1515 and Peter Munich 1436.

Earlier references to the use of magical numbers in blade marking was noted to a mysterious figure named Sephacial from England, who published an esoteric book titled "Little Book of Magic" (no details of when published), but was probably latter 19th century.

There seems to be some perception that at least in the case of the numbers 1414 there is a possibility of these numbers being a passage from the Bible, Book of Job, 14:14, "...man dying, will he live again? All the days of my warfare would I wait, until my release shall come".
While there are variations in wording depending on which translation is used, the original verses were translated by Martin Luther from Greek.

As these numbers seem to have typically been presumed as a date, it is interesting to think of them as representing a Bible passage as seen in the following instance. In "A History of the Episcopal Church in Narranganseth, Rhode Island" ( Wilkins Updike, 1907, p.61), a description of the belongings of one of the prominant members, apparantly a Hugeuenot from France who died in 1736, the following is noted; "....and an ancient sword bearing the date 1414".

Clearly even among devoutly religious persons, these numbers were seen as a date, rather than this certainly well known passage.

The use of numbers in the practice of gematria, well established in Kabbalistic parlance, and often used talismanically in the latter 17th and throughout the 18th century on sword blades in varying application with other symbols seems suggested here.
The number combination 1441 possibly may be a palindrome, and is seen on other blades, along with the familiar 'Passau wolf' on Portuguese swords of 16th, perhaps later, swords.

On a British hanger c.1740, in the same bold manner as many of these, is the date '1536'. It is suggested that this records the date of the beginning of the noted dissolution of monasteries and the break between the Anglican Church and Roman Catholic Church by Henry VIII.

I think it would be interesting to see examples of swords with these dates and others, and review whether talismanic, or other significance would be applied to them.

[kisak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Wagner notes further that these numbers often appear with the famed 'running wolf' marking, which would seem to emphasize my personal belief in that particular marking being talismanic in nature. The use of other numbers, not as commonly seen is noted by Wagner as associated with particular German makers; Johannes Wundes -1479, Johannes Keuller-1495, Meves Berns-1506, Johnann Hartkop-1506, Mathias Wundes-1515 and Peter Munich 1436.

This almost makes it sound like the numbers (in these cases) would be a form of makers mark. The wolf for Passau, and then the number to identify the specific maker in question.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Kisak,
That is a good observation, and it is tempting to think that might be the case. It does seem that these numeric groupings are always in four, as a year date, with the years invariably being 15th and 16th century period.
Many of these are punctuated or interrupted with dots or 'x's between each number, which would imply some kind of separation, much as in an acronym in the case of letters.

The running wolf, also, is not always accompanying the numbers, and other symbols or markings sometimes appear, and often in varying configuration again suggesting separation from the meaning of the numbers.

In reviewing "Hunting Weapons" (H.L.Blackmore, London, 1971, p.41), the author is discussing the use of magical signs or numbers on blades, supposed to imbue the blade with talismanic properties, and notes that these presumed Kabbalistic meanings were known only to the owners or magicians who sold them to the owner.

It sounds almost like the deep and personally mystical symbolism we see in our own times with the popularity of tattoos, where purposeful individuals present illustrations or symbols they want emblazoned on thier skin, ostensibly to carry forth some deeply personal stigma.
Perhaps certain individuals approached bladesmiths or engravers to add such personalized symbols or numbers on thier blades.

This does not explain the comments made by Wagner suggesting that such numbers, always in fours simulating years, were consistant with certain makers, unless each maker had acquired some magical gematric combination to imbue strength into thier blades.

Blackmore notes (op.cit. p.41) referring to the number 1414 used on blades of the 17th and 18th centuries possibly a combination based on the lucky number 7, or referring to the date of death of a Bohemian hero (Johann Huss), but that "...unfortunately other sets of numbers such as 1441, 1506 and 1515 were also used and there is, as yet, no logical explanation for them".

Richard Cohen (" By The Sword", 2002, p.107) notes that makers of the Middle Ages, times of heightened superstition, "..the swordsmith was believed to employ a magic compound of gold, silver, copper and lead, a so called 'electrum magicum' as part of his craft. Under the influence of the stars he was held to be able to import supernatural strength to both sword and armor".
Perhaps numbers corresponded to symbols for elements in formulas or implied formulas suggesting the makers blade carried these qualities, in the tradition of these earlier swordsmiths.

Cohen notes further on p.117 that makers also used animal images, Latin mottoes, Biblical verses, prayers, charms, curses, anagrams and secret ciphers on blades.

In times of religious persecution and deep political intrigue, perhaps numbers in conjunction with alphabetical letters, as in code, were placed in a sort of cipher using first letters of a word or phrase were applied. It seems there was some sort of situation where this type of coding was used, but havent found notes yet.

All of these premises carry certain potential for at least some understanding of these mysterious markings, which have captivated my curiosity for more years than I can say. I'm really glad to have the opportunity to look further into these topics here, and I really appreciate you joining me on this!!!
Thank you so much,

All best regards,
Jim

[potapych]

Interesting subject as always, Jim. Here's a sample to get you started; not one of your dates or necessarily a running Passau Wolf but numbers, a Latin inscription and a critter nonetheless. This is a rapier (or perhaps an espada ropera blade), 30 7/8" in length. (78.4 cm)

Looking decidedly un-wolflike and given the stocky build, brindle and pronounced blunt proboscis, I'm leaning towards an Alano Español for the critter. I have seen it engraved on both a miquelet lock and a powder horn, although it was depicted wearing a collar in both those instances. The inscription translates to: "For God and Religion" but there are some letters following that I cannot make out. As far as I can determine, nothing of world shaking import occurred in the European sphere in 1514.

(Caveat: European arms are not my bailiwick so I could be wrong about any or all of the above ;-)

Ray

[celtan]

Doesn't look like the Running Wolf of Toledo, perhaps one of the many subsequent german variations..?

The style of engraving doesn't seem to correlate to 1514, nor the relatively thin blade.

The latin motto might be "Pro Deo et Religio Vera": For God and (the) true religion.

The pro deo inscription seems to be common in Poland and surrounding areas...

In Sept 8th of 1514, a coalition of Poles an Lithuanians defeated the Russians.

Best

M

Originally Posted by potapych

Interesting subject as always, Jim. Here's a sample to get you started; not one of your dates or necessarily a running Passau Wolf but numbers, a Latin inscription and a critter nonetheless. This is a rapier (or perhaps an espada ropera blade), 30 7/8" in length. (78.4 cm)

Looking decidedly un-wolflike and given the stocky build, brindle and pronounced blunt proboscis, I'm leaning towards an Alano Español for the critter. I have seen it engraved on both a miquelet lock and a powder horn, although it was depicted wearing a collar in both those instances. The inscription translates to: "For God and Religion" but there are some letters following that I cannot make out. As far as I can determine, nothing of world shaking import occurred in the European sphere in 1514.

(Caveat: European arms are not my bailiwick so I could be wrong about any or all of the above ;-)

Ray

[kronckew]

i would caution against assigning any deep and hidden meaning just yet. remember occam's razor.

i am reminded of my barrel knife (posted in the eth. folding knives thread which has just been resurrected).

Originally Posted by kronckew

another ethnic folder i like is the barrel knife from sweden, they are each unique and the parts are not interchangeable.
this is sometimes referred to as an '1874' model as that was when it was 'patented' in the USA by a maker who had learned to make them in sweden, one of the swedish makers, john engstrum stamped his with the date he started making them, also 1874, this is NOT necessarily the mfg. date, he made them from 1874 thru 1918 and all were stamped 1874. they were made from 1864-1925 by the major mfg. mine is a p. holmberg, made between 1900-1920, 2.75 in. barrel.

the '1874' is thus a dubious 'patent' date in one case*, but a date the maker started making date in another, and a 'date' stamped onto many similar knives for almost 50 years.

sometimes numbers are just numbers. sometimes year markings have mundane explanations.

* - p.s. - i understand someone has recently 'patented' the wheel in australia as for some reason, no one had previously patented it there. all hail the inventor of the wheel, he's australian... but no relation to 1874.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent example Ray!!! and thank you for these observations. You seem to have a pretty impressive understanding of things European despite the modest note The running wolf was a profoundly stylized, almost temporal, image which was used and copied widely in almost countless variations. It seems to have almost always been chiselled or placed with chopped, sticklike lines, and these more artlike figures seem more associated with mid 17th into 18th century European blade motif, quite contrary to the 'Passau' wolf.

As Manuel has well noted, the inscription resembles Polish and Hungarian examples of these periods, but this blade, which seems likely a smallsword or court sword type, may well be from a number of European locations. Most interesting is of course the numeric '1514', again seemingly recalling a date year, and in similar number groupings as others discussed.

Thank you Ray and Manuel for coming in on this, and Ray, for sharing this example which is a perfect example of these variations.

Getting back to the idea of these numbers representing date years, I found another reference to the 'ancient sword with date 1414' noted in my previous post suggesting it was a heirloom associated with Huguenot ancestry. In "History of the Huguenot Emigration to America" (Charles Baird, 1885, p.324), this very sword, belonging to a man named Gabriel Bernon, apparantly a prominant Rhode Island resident is mentioned. The author notes that "...this date synchronizes with that of one of the wars of the House of Burgundy, from whom the Bernon's claim to be descended"...referring to the year 1414 and John the Intrepid whose forces destroyed the fort at Tonnere.

Here is an example of the interesting application of spin in associating these numbers with historic events to serve the developed history of a weapon, much as 'family stories' constantly pervade geneological histories. This is not to discount the obvious profound lineage of this, or any other individual with such accounts, but to illustrate the misperception often found with these engraved numbers on sword blades.

It would seem that if these numbers actually were intended to represent such significant dates, that other motif or dates of certain events would be included to corroborate the rather than the singular broadness of an entire year. As an example, Scottish blades often carry patriotic mottos that are associated with the two historic rebellions, well known as simply the '15 and the '45, for their years 1715 and 1745, yet none of the patriotic blades I have seen have either of these years shown. Admittedly, the terms 15 and 45 are clearly broadly stated, against my note on the use of specific date, but I think the example still serves.

An interesting entry was found in "The Wallace Collection", catalogued by the esteemed Sir Guy Francis Laking in 1900, on p.8, where he describes a German hand and a half sword, and discusses the date 1415 which is engraved in the blade which cannot be accepted, noting that "...often sword blades of this type have stamped upon them the number 1414 together with the running wolf mark; with this combination they may be accepted as being the work of the Austrian early 17th century bladesmith Steyr, who added the number 1414 to the running wolf sign, in order that his blade might not be confused with Passau, who had already adopted the running wolf as his stamp. The number 1415 may likewise have reference to the work of Steyr."

* this note seems to correspond well with Kisak's well placed observation on the number and marking perhaps aligning to represent certain makers. While this does not seem to actually be the case, the concept is certainly sound, as perceived by this most esteemed writer.

This is a most puzzling reference (taken from online copy of an apparantly early copy of this catalog, as my 1962 copy seems to be incongruent with paging and examples). The Passau stamp was as far as I know, originally used in of course Passau, so why wouldn't they have 'adopted' it, and the mark was copied in Austria as is well known, so why would this maker be trying to 'protect' it as his own? Why 1414 or 15?

In my copy of the Wallace catalog, p.247 (A475) a German hand and a half c.1620 blade, has the incised running wolf with crudely cut numbers 1415.
Laking notes, "...the numerals 1415 must not be interpreted as a date, but have some other significance". He goes on to note this number on a dagger and 1414, 1441 on numerous other examples at Bern, Schwarzburg, Tower of London and Windsor Castle along with others. He also mentions figures 1469 and 1515.

* just noticed as reading that 1909 catalog was entirely renumbered in 1962.

It would seem at this point fairly well established that these numbers are not dates, and while in some cases associated with certain makers, they appear no more consistant with the makers than the use of other related markings such as the running wolf.

The quest continues

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

i would caution against assigning any deep and hidden meaning just yet. remember occam's razor.

i am reminded of my barrel knife (posted in the eth. folding knives thread which has just been resurrected).



the '1874' is thus a dubious 'patent' date in one case*, but a date the maker started making date in another, and a 'date' stamped onto many similar knives for almost 50 years.

sometimes numbers are just numbers. sometimes year markings have mundane explanations.

* - p.s. - i understand someone has recently 'patented' the wheel in australia as for some reason, no one had previously patented it there. all hail the inventor of the wheel, he's australian... but no relation to 1874.

We crossed posts Kronckew, and that is a very well placed note on the use of year in the case of these patents and model year instances. Wouldn't it be interesting if these numbers were found on similar blades and were perhaps a pattern type? I do know that Solingen makers did appear to align certain inscriptions to the markets or clients receiving the blades in some apparant degree, suggesting type or patterning.
While this seems unlikely, it is certainly worthy of note. At this point, with the use of cabbalistic symbolism so firmly in place on blades in these times, as well as the concurrent use of gematria and ciphers, I am still drawn to the esoteric possibilities of these numbers.

All best regards,
Jim