How many of the katars we know were court katars?

estcrh · 10th November 2017, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Returning to the thread and the question which is what were the better quality Katars? I presume the daggers worn at court fall into the same category.. Pinterest has a lot of very ornate examples at:

https://www.pinterest.com/wmilitaria...rs/?lp=truebut

The Met Museum has many excellent examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2017, 06:55 AM

Jim, there is very obscure symbolism and iconography in most traditional cultures and the art of those cultures.

For example, most of the art of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages was religious art, and it is all loaded with iconography:- you see a rose, there is a message, you see a lily, there is a different message. Even into the 19th century some artists were still using the symbolism from the past, probably not as often, nor as cleverly, but it did crop up.

When we involve ourselves in attempts to understand the art and design motifs of past societies, we need to be able to think in a way that is in tune with the people from the society that we are attempting to come to terms with. In the case of a society that is based in Hindu religion and the attendant culture, we are really quite fortunate, because apart from sources authored by Hindu people themselves, we have a lot of material that was authored by the British, many of whom were captivated by Hindu culture.

However, any iconography can only apply within the context to which it is related. If we see little upwards pointing triangles in a Hindu context, we know exactly what we are looking at, always dependent upon context, but if we see a line of those little triangles cut into cloth on the kitchen table, well, all we might be seeing is the result of somebody using pinking shears.

Similarly, if we see a line of those little VVVVVV on a Hindu weapon, we know how to approach an understanding of them within a Hindu context, but if we see those VVVVVV in a different context we may only be looking at an ornamental motif. The ornamental motif may have been inspired by religious iconography, but removed from its original context it no longer has the original meaning.

Just as a rose in 21st century pop art is simply a rose

Jens Nordlunde · 10th November 2017, 04:48 PM

Alan is right, and in the start it took me a long time to figure out, that you need knowledge of how they were thinking at the time, and try to think so yourself.
This means, that one need to have some background knowledge, or the understanding of the decoration will be lost.
Thank you Alan for making this clear.

Ian · 10th November 2017, 05:07 PM

Just as an aside, we see the VVVV... motif also on some of the jamdhar katari. A nice example here.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2017, 05:20 PM

Brilliantly said Alan, and one of the most perfectly explained perspectives I have seen describing exactly the way we examine, analyze and appreciate the art involved in weaponry. As Jens has noted, we need to step into the times and culture of the people who were using the weapons themselves, and to learn as much as we can about how they thought, what did they believe?

This is why we always emphasize how important it is to include the history, symbolism and in the same perspective, the art and iconography in our study of these arms.

As Alan has also well noted, sometimes the same symbols, motif and designs are transmitted into entirely different contexts as influences transcend cultural and geographic boundaries. In these cases of course, we must realize the original symbolism no longer applies, and becomes simply an aesthetic motif.

However, the influence in the recipient context still does in degree represent historically the connections between the cultures involved at some point. Sometimes these signal events or periods in which the cultures came together, and help in setting the time the weapon from which the weapon derived.

That is in my opinion, the joy and passion of studying these weapons. Not just classification of them, but the stories they share in helping us better understand them; where they were, who used them, what things were represented by them in their character and decoration.

It is wonderful to hear these perspectives from those here who are in my opinion masters of serious weapons study and investigative research.

Perfect analogy about the linear 'V' pattern Alan! sometimes what we see is just that, but it is up to us to determine just when it might be deeper.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th November 2017, 01:41 PM

Alan's post made me remember one of my books, Suvarnadvipa written by R.C.Majumdar.
The book deals with the colonizing of countries and islands of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Borneo starting under the Saliendra kings from the end of the 8th century to beginning of the 11th century, and continuing in the palmy days of the empire of Majapahit.

I find the reading of the two volumes very interesting, ass it shows that the Indians in the early centuries had ships, which could move a lot of men, or they would not have been able to colonize other countries.
The Indians brought their religion, art, weapons and the symbolism with them, and some of it may have survived the following centuries.

Compare this katar to the one shown in post 7. The side guards are slimmer than the one shown above.

mariusgmioc · 12th November 2017, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Compare this katar to the one shown in post 7. The side guards are slimmer than the one shown above.

Hello Jens,

From the mechanical point of view, the sideguards don't need to be particularly thick and strong to serve their purpose well. What is of critical importance for maintainig the integrity and functionality of the Katar are the joints between the grip and the side guards, and these are more dependent on the solidity of the transverse grip bars.

Regards,

Marius

Jens Nordlunde · 12th November 2017, 12:56 PM

Hello Marius,

You may be right when it comes to a sword, but what if the blow comes from a mace?
I have so far seen several katars with 'thin' side guards where one or both side guards are bend inwards, but I have not seen this on the more sturdy katars.

Regards

Jens

11th November 2017, 01:41 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Alan's post made me remember one of my books, Suvarnadvipa written by R.C.Majumdar. The book deals with the colonizing of countries and islands of the Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java, Bali and Borneo starting under the Saliendra kings from the end of the 8th century to beginning of the 11th century, and continuing in the palmy days of the empire of Majapahit. I find the reading of the two volumes very interesting, ass it shows that the Indians in the early centuries had ships, which could move a lot of men, or they would not have been able to colonize other countries. The Indians brought their religion, art, weapons and the symbolism with them, and some of it may have survived the following centuries. Compare this katar to the one shown in post 7. The side guards are slimmer than the one shown above. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 11th November 2017 at 03:10 PM.

10th November 2017, 06:55 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Jim, there is very obscure symbolism and iconography in most traditional cultures and the art of those cultures. For example, most of the art of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages was religious art, and it is all loaded with iconography:- you see a rose, there is a message, you see a lily, there is a different message. Even into the 19th century some artists were still using the symbolism from the past, probably not as often, nor as cleverly, but it did crop up. When we involve ourselves in attempts to understand the art and design motifs of past societies, we need to be able to think in a way that is in tune with the people from the society that we are attempting to come to terms with. In the case of a society that is based in Hindu religion and the attendant culture, we are really quite fortunate, because apart from sources authored by Hindu people themselves, we have a lot of material that was authored by the British, many of whom were captivated by Hindu culture. However, any iconography can only apply within the context to which it is related. If we see little upwards pointing triangles in a Hindu context, we know exactly what we are looking at, always dependent upon context, but if we see a line of those little triangles cut into cloth on the kitchen table, well, all we might be seeing is the result of somebody using pinking shears. Similarly, if we see a line of those little VVVVVV on a Hindu weapon, we know how to approach an understanding of them within a Hindu context, but if we see those VVVVVV in a different context we may only be looking at an ornamental motif. The ornamental motif may have been inspired by religious iconography, but removed from its original context it no longer has the original meaning. Just as a rose in 21st century pop art is simply a rose

10th November 2017, 04:48 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Alan is right, and in the start it took me a long time to figure out, that you need knowledge of how they were thinking at the time, and try to think so yourself. This means, that one need to have some background knowledge, or the understanding of the decoration will be lost. Thank you Alan for making this clear.

10th November 2017, 05:07 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,043	Just as an aside, we see the VVVV... motif also on some of the jamdhar katari. A nice example here. Ian.

10th November 2017, 05:20 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Brilliantly said Alan, and one of the most perfectly explained perspectives I have seen describing exactly the way we examine, analyze and appreciate the art involved in weaponry. As Jens has noted, we need to step into the times and culture of the people who were using the weapons themselves, and to learn as much as we can about how they thought, what did they believe? This is why we always emphasize how important it is to include the history, symbolism and in the same perspective, the art and iconography in our study of these arms. As Alan has also well noted, sometimes the same symbols, motif and designs are transmitted into entirely different contexts as influences transcend cultural and geographic boundaries. In these cases of course, we must realize the original symbolism no longer applies, and becomes simply an aesthetic motif. However, the influence in the recipient context still does in degree represent historically the connections between the cultures involved at some point. Sometimes these signal events or periods in which the cultures came together, and help in setting the time the weapon from which the weapon derived. That is in my opinion, the joy and passion of studying these weapons. Not just classification of them, but the stories they share in helping us better understand them; where they were, who used them, what things were represented by them in their character and decoration. It is wonderful to hear these perspectives from those here who are in my opinion masters of serious weapons study and investigative research. Perfect analogy about the linear 'V' pattern Alan! sometimes what we see is just that, but it is up to us to determine just when it might be deeper.

12th November 2017, 12:56 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Hello Marius, You may be right when it comes to a sword, but what if the blow comes from a mace? I have so far seen several katars with 'thin' side guards where one or both side guards are bend inwards, but I have not seen this on the more sturdy katars. Regards Jens