blade cleaning.. need some advice!!

[zartane]

got this tajong that i would like to share.. the blade is not in good condition, it sort of have a two tones on the blade which the other part is darker (black) as if it was burned or something..

rusted badly and tried soaking it with lime.. but i found out small particals of the blade came of bits by bits, guessing using lemon juice is too hard on the blade which resulted more damage to the blade. so after surfing through this forum thoroughly, i used pineapple juice and its comforting to know that it did not harm the blade.

my question is, how long should i do the process??because every one hour i'll run the blade through tap water while brushing it with a soft brush, it seems like there are black stains coming out from the blade.. its been two days now and the blade still showing the same black stain that smells like burned steel (i guess)..

[Lew]

I am no expert but the blade seems badly erroded so I would just oil it and call it a day.

Lew

[A. G. Maisey]

It can take several weeks in pineapple juice to completely remove all rust from a badly corroded blade.
Assisted by mechanical removal where necessary this will see the blade brought back to white ferric material.

This blade is badly corroded.

Be prepared to lose a considerably amount of material from the blade.

Alternatively do as Lew suggests and go no further.

If it were mine, I would continue the cleaning process, and depending on the end result, possibly do some limited reshaping of the blade at the end of the process.
Not everybody would agree with this approach; it is the philosophy of Solo, and not accepted by everybody, similarly, not everybody has the necessary knowledge or skill to carry out this reshaping correctly.

The difference in colour that have noted is caused by the heat-treat process:- this blade was taken to critical then quenched in a quench medium up to the line that marks the boundary between the dark and light colour. The fact that you can still see this indicates to me that although this blade is badly corroded, and you will lose some more material from it if you continue cleaning, you have probably already lost the bulk of of material that you will lose.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

I usually use the coconut's water for badly corroded blades. It may take a week or two on your blade. Use the water of ripe coconut, not the unripe/young ones, undiluted. Make sure the blade all submerged, or you will got a nasty rust on the water line. Check the blade at least once a day and brush off any loose rust produced. You may add some lime juice, but it is optional. Prepare for a nasty smell !

I work solely with coconut's water and lime juice, and have never used pineapple juice, so don't know anything about it. I prefer to eat the pineapple as rujak salad rather than use it to clean the blade

Good luck !

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, coconut water is more traditional than pineapple juice, but pineapple juice is more gentle.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

I work solely with coconut's water and lime juice

Good luck !

So put the lime in the coconut?

Lew

[zartane]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

I am no expert but the blade seems badly erroded so I would just oil it and call it a day.

Lew

if i stop etching it (which i already did), what effect will it give on the blade afterwards, compared if i go on soaking it with ripe coconut water and totally cleaned the blade??

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

So put the lime in the coconut?

Lew

Yes, Lew. Just mix some lime juices to add acidity of the coconut water. Use sparringly, though.

Basically, there would be 4 general steps for keris etching in traditional way.
1. Soak the blade in coconut water and lime juices solutions. This step only necessary when the blade is heavily corroded or having an old, stubborn etch. The soak would last usually from 1 night to 1 week, depending on the severity. This step should be omitted if we have a clean blade.
2. Mutih (from putih=white. Mutih=to make it clean white). An important step which directly affect your etching result. Pure lime juice is brushed on the blade, then wait a moment until it react with the blade (the color change to yellowish-green), then brush again. Continue brush-and-wait prosess, and add a small amount of juices only when necessary (e.g. when the blade dry-up). You should see the juices get thicken and turn into dark brown during the process. Wash the blade when the juices has became too dark or when the blade has been white-clean. Care should be taken to get rid all the juice/acid, or the rust would start to develop again as soon as the blade dry.
3. Marangi= to apply the warangan solution.
4. Oiling.

Please remind that it is only a general guidance. Details and recipes may vary (a lot!), according to experience and 'personal taste'. I do encourage every keris lovers to have an experience on marangi/etching, as it is an educative experience. But it takes a lot of experience to do it properly, though.

Originally Posted by ZARTANE

if i stop etching it (which i already did), what effect will it give on the blade afterwards, compared if i go on soaking it with ripe coconut water and totally cleaned the blade??

Well, if you clean the acid/juice properly and oil the blade, I think there would be no adverse effect on the blade, other than it is still dirty But I'm not talking from magical/spiritual point of view here

Like Pak Alan already suggest, I also encourage you to clean the blade. If you do some reshaping, I suggest you do it before the mutih process (after the soak), as the lime juice on mutih process would soften the file/abrasive paper marks a little bit. Don't forget to post the result. But it all up to you, of course

[zartane]

what does reshaping means??

[PenangsangII]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It can take several weeks in pineapple juice to completely remove all rust from a badly corroded blade.
Assisted by mechanical removal where necessary this will see the blade brought back to white ferric material.

This blade is badly corroded.

Be prepared to lose a considerably amount of material from the blade.

Alternatively do as Lew suggests and go no further.

If it were mine, I would continue the cleaning process, and depending on the end result, possibly do some limited reshaping of the blade at the end of the process.
Not everybody would agree with this approach; it is the philosophy of Solo, and not accepted by everybody, similarly, not everybody has the necessary knowledge or skill to carry out this reshaping correctly.

The difference in colour that have noted is caused by the heat-treat process:- this blade was taken to critical then quenched in a quench medium up to the line that marks the boundary between the dark and light colour. The fact that you can still see this indicates to me that although this blade is badly corroded, and you will lose some more material from it if you continue cleaning, you have probably already lost the bulk of of material that you will lose.

I was once told that the difference in color (the darker about a quarter of the blade) was not only caused by quenching, but due to human blood corrosion. It was said that blood's temperature & chemical contents contain agents that eventually darken the tip portion of pandai saras blade. Of course, I dont have any scientific studies to back this up.

[A. G. Maisey]

What I mean by re-shaping is this:-

when the cleaning process is finished, there will be an irregular edge to the blade, possibly some of the greneng and kembang kacang will be irregular and poorly shaped; file the edges of the blade to give a more regular edge; it may not be advisable to clean away all the irregularities, for to do this could leave the blade looking too thin, but you can lessen the irregular appearance by removing some of the small gaps, and reducing in size some of the big gaps; the greneng and kembang kacang can be tidied up.

All this is not as easy as it sounds and you must have a very good mental image of what the blade looked like when it was new, and try in so far as possible to retain the same balance, proportion, and feeling. To do this reshaping well is really a job for a very experienced pandai keris or mranggi, not because using the tools is difficult, but because you need a lot of experience to reshape the blade without destroying the effect.You need to have a clear mental picture of the finished shape you want to achieve---don't forget:- you are restoring a work of art.

When it has been reshaped the edges should be smoothed of file marks with a stone and wet and dry paper. Crushed terracotta used with water is also good. When the file marks have been smoothed away you can rub a little salt along the edges and encourage rust, this will allow the old surface to blend with the newly finished surface; then you clean everything again and continue with your staining.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What I mean by re-shaping is this:-

when the cleaning process is finished, there will be an irregular edge to the blade, possibly some of the greneng and kembang kacang will be irregular and poorly shaped; file the edges of the blade to give a more regular edge; it may not be advisable to clean away all the irregularities, for to do this could leave the blade looking too thin, but you can lessen the irregular appearance by removing some of the small gaps, and reducing in size some of the big gaps; the greneng and kembang kacang can be tidied up.

All this is not as easy as it sounds and you must have a very good mental image of what the blade looked like when it was new, and try in so far as possible to retain the same balance, proportion, and feeling. To do this reshaping well is really a job for a very experienced pandai keris or mranggi, not because using the tools is difficult, but because you need a lot of experience to reshape the blade without destroying the effect.You need to have a clear mental picture of the finished shape you want to achieve---don't forget:- you are restoring a work of art.

When it has been reshaped the edges should be smoothed of file marks with a stone and wet and dry paper. Crushed terracotta used with water is also good. When the file marks have been smoothed away you can rub a little salt along the edges and encourage rust, this will allow the old surface to blend with the newly finished surface; then you clean everything again and continue with your staining.

I'm very curious about this reshaping discussion.
Do you think it is possible to reshape this damaged greneng to its proper greneng shape?
This might be a new made keris, but I really Like the dhapur jalak ngore couse the blade still show a healthy shape.

[A. G. Maisey]

Personally, I would not touch that greneng. Others might, but I would not.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Personally, I would not touch that greneng. Others might, but I would not.

me neither. I will leave it that way.