Dagger ID, MN Garage Sale find

Craig Johnson · 31st August 2006, 04:04 AM

Hello All

I hope this finds you well. I have been away for a while but thought this might prove a puzzle for someone.

Fellow came down to the shop the other day and brought a dagger he had gotten at a garage sale. Asked if I knew what it was. It stumped me but had some interesting features so I thought I would post it here and see what the gestalt thought about it.

The piece has about an 11" blade and a four-inch grip. The scale grip is made from a very dark dense wood and I believe bone. The bone side is decorated with circles around dots. Very neatly done. Two copper rivets anchor the scales and there is a spacer liner of very thin copper between the scales and the tang as well as the bolsters and end cap.

All the work has evidence of hand file finishing. The brass or bronze bolsters are made from irregular thickness half pipe pieces and held in place with a rivet.

The blade has a rough fuller on one side and seems to have been forged as forge scale can be seen in a few places. The rest is filed and shows those deep black scratches in a feathery layout that indicate hand use as opposed to powered grinding.

Blade has a nice thickness to it at the hilt and tapers to the point feels good in the hand and would make a good tool as well as weapon.

The scabbard is something the peaked my interest even more in a way as I had not seen something put together this way before. The lower portion is a steel tapered sleeve brazed up the back on a lap seam. The central section is black leather stitched up the back over wood. The top is a copper sleeve that is soldered with the crenellated seam construction you see in old pots.( I know there is a name for this but it is slipping my mind at the moment.) The two copper bands are separate pieces and held closed by rivets at the back through the out turned ends. The hanger on the back is quite something as it is an upside down J shape where the long arm is riveted to the back of the steel sleeve and the upper bend wraps tightly around a ring that looks almost like drawn rod. The short end comes back down and wraps tightly around the rivet holding the ends of the middle copper band together. Pretty handy and a nice piece of forging, the finish is all the hand file finish.

The interior of the scabbard are three pieces of wood friction fit tightly into the scabbard leaving space for the blade and almost half the grip.

Does this style look familar to any one?

It could well have been made by some one with some skill in there garage shop but somehow its got a different sense to it than something made local.

Interested to hear your comments.

Best
Craig

fearn · 31st August 2006, 06:15 AM

I think it's a Chinese eating knife. Do a search on "Chinese trousse." I've seen similar knives sold in ethno shops in the Midwest. Typically, the sheath holds a pair of chopsticks and perhaps a pickle spear as well, but this one seems to be a knife alone.

F

Jim McDougall · 4th September 2006, 09:30 PM

Although the unusual pommel cap on this interesting knife does indeed reflect certain Asian gestalt, it seems that the dot and circle motif is typically associated with Central Asian weapons. This simple, yet distinct ,motif appears on items from Afghanistan and adjacent regions such as the lohar, and I have seen it on buzkhashi whip grips, these items probably early 20th century. It seems possible this may be a bytshak type knife that may be from Uzbek regions, but the same motif also appears on Bosnian knives, so it would be difficult to determine exactly with such diffusion.
Best regards,
Jim

Andrew · 5th September 2006, 04:33 AM

Jim, I've also seen this exact feature on recent decorative Indian kukhri.

Jim McDougall · 6th September 2006, 01:52 AM

Hi Andrew,
That seems to fall into place well as a great deal of modern examples of such classical weapons seem to derive from northwestern regions of India, particularly Rajasthan. While this motif is of course extremely simple, it seems distinctive in its application on items from regions described.
All best regards,
Jim

Ferguson · 6th September 2006, 04:13 PM

Tibet? Bhutan?

Just a wild guess.

Steve

ward · 6th September 2006, 05:54 PM

mid late 20 century tibetan

derek · 8th September 2006, 05:04 AM

A tibetan Khampa knife. I've had several pass through my hands over the years.....

derek · 8th September 2006, 05:05 AM

That leather bit on the sheath will sometimes be ray skin on the smaller ones.

Mark · 8th September 2006, 10:38 PM

And because the world revolves around dha, I offer this interesting comparison, which was picked up in Yunnan Province, So. China:

The scabbard is not typical of a dha, which usually transition to a flat tip, but it is a style that seems associated with the Tai of Yunnan Province. Maybe they got it from further West?

ausjulius · 9th September 2006, 03:23 PM

it is a boan or bonan traditional knife,, although this one may be a chinese copy,,,,,,,,, bonan are , i think the smallest group in china,, anyway most chinese who know of them know mostly only they have good knives,,

a guy on the british blades forum,, had a good collection of older ones ,,
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...ight=mongolian

id say this is a chinese copy,,
the bonan are moslem people living somewhere just north east of tibet,, the speek a mongol language but ar emore as the setteled locals in the area,,

normaly their knives are of a rather high quality, and ushaly they have good laminated blades,,

the main difference to these and the other mongolian form and the tibetians knives it the different form of hanger and the bronze sheaths,,

the chinese have copied these , and mongolian and tibetian knives and massproduced them over the last 200 years or so,, many of the knives the mongols and tibetians used were chinese made, as the chinese could make it cheaper,, and with interesting materials , like ray skin,, which ,, isnt vary common , in say tuva,, or mongolia,,
the native ones generaly have better steel blades,, and the chinese ones come with things like chopsticks , pickel forks,and chinese decorations on them , chinese seem to have been oblivious to the natives taste,,

David · 9th September 2006, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

...the chinese have copied these , and mongolian and tibetian knives and massproduced them over the last 200 years or so,, many of the knives the mongols and tibetians used were chinese made, as the chinese could make it cheaper,, and with interesting materials , like ray skin,, which ,, isnt vary common , in say tuva,, or mongolia,,
the native ones generaly have better steel blades,, and the chinese ones come with things like chopsticks , pickel forks,and chinese decorations on them , chinese seem to have been oblivious to the natives taste,,

The Chinese knives that you refer to that come with chopsticks and sometimes other eating instruments is called a trousse, i believe. The blades do often look similar to the example that Craig posted, but i don't think it can be called a trousse without the other eating impliments. While it is possible that the form of the trousse blade might have been based on these traditional boan knives, i don't know if it is fair to say that they are merely meant to be copies of this form. The Chinese trousse has been a type of utility blade for many years and i don't believe it is attempting to pass itself off as a boan knife. It can be found on all levels of quality and you will find many fine old examples with high quality blades. The Chinese are not oblivious to Boan tastes, these are impliments meant for Chinese dining so the chopsticks and pickle knives are quite appropriate. There are trousse from other cultures as well that may include different impliment for that particular cultures tastes. Here is a link to a fine Chinese trousse. If you google "Chinese trousse" it you will find many more:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=807

ausjulius · 10th September 2006, 12:00 AM

the chinese trousse is a chinese version of the traditional mongolian and manchu knives,,
the knife styles native to china are quite different..
many times the chinese produced these knives to sell to the nitive populations that boarded china,, also they became popular in korea and japan, they are not originaly a chinese knfie,,
and for the most part were only possessed by the richer classes in china,, as the avverage chinese used the local national forms of knife,,

the chinese created their own style of these knives, adding many fancy tools and chinese decorations,, aswell as dome different blade forms,,

still as i said, you see many of these knives with chinese fittings on them in places as far away as tuva .. the chinese massproduced them in the 19th centuary on a very large scale,, and dont seem to have made them specificaly for the local groups they were sellign them to,,
i remember reading a book,, dont remember the title , long time ago , but it was written by an english solider, in the book he commented that in hongkong ... sometime in 1900 , there was a fine array of chinese copies of japanese swords, and native knives and swords,, all of chinese make, on display in the shops and markets there,,
seems they were producing them by the ton,, like those bone or ivoery katanas

31st August 2006, 04:04 AM	#1
Craig Johnson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	Dagger ID, MN Garage Sale find Hello All I hope this finds you well. I have been away for a while but thought this might prove a puzzle for someone. Fellow came down to the shop the other day and brought a dagger he had gotten at a garage sale. Asked if I knew what it was. It stumped me but had some interesting features so I thought I would post it here and see what the gestalt thought about it. The piece has about an 11" blade and a four-inch grip. The scale grip is made from a very dark dense wood and I believe bone. The bone side is decorated with circles around dots. Very neatly done. Two copper rivets anchor the scales and there is a spacer liner of very thin copper between the scales and the tang as well as the bolsters and end cap. All the work has evidence of hand file finishing. The brass or bronze bolsters are made from irregular thickness half pipe pieces and held in place with a rivet. The blade has a rough fuller on one side and seems to have been forged as forge scale can be seen in a few places. The rest is filed and shows those deep black scratches in a feathery layout that indicate hand use as opposed to powered grinding. Blade has a nice thickness to it at the hilt and tapers to the point feels good in the hand and would make a good tool as well as weapon. The scabbard is something the peaked my interest even more in a way as I had not seen something put together this way before. The lower portion is a steel tapered sleeve brazed up the back on a lap seam. The central section is black leather stitched up the back over wood. The top is a copper sleeve that is soldered with the crenellated seam construction you see in old pots.( I know there is a name for this but it is slipping my mind at the moment.) The two copper bands are separate pieces and held closed by rivets at the back through the out turned ends. The hanger on the back is quite something as it is an upside down J shape where the long arm is riveted to the back of the steel sleeve and the upper bend wraps tightly around a ring that looks almost like drawn rod. The short end comes back down and wraps tightly around the rivet holding the ends of the middle copper band together. Pretty handy and a nice piece of forging, the finish is all the hand file finish. The interior of the scabbard are three pieces of wood friction fit tightly into the scabbard leaving space for the blade and almost half the grip. Does this style look familar to any one? It could well have been made by some one with some skill in there garage shop but somehow its got a different sense to it than something made local. Interested to hear your comments. Best Craig Attached Images Last edited by Craig Johnson; 31st August 2006 at 04:08 AM. Reason: lost picture

31st August 2006, 06:15 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I think it's a Chinese eating knife. Do a search on "Chinese trousse." I've seen similar knives sold in ethno shops in the Midwest. Typically, the sheath holds a pair of chopsticks and perhaps a pickle spear as well, but this one seems to be a knife alone. F

4th September 2006, 09:30 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Although the unusual pommel cap on this interesting knife does indeed reflect certain Asian gestalt, it seems that the dot and circle motif is typically associated with Central Asian weapons. This simple, yet distinct ,motif appears on items from Afghanistan and adjacent regions such as the lohar, and I have seen it on buzkhashi whip grips, these items probably early 20th century. It seems possible this may be a bytshak type knife that may be from Uzbek regions, but the same motif also appears on Bosnian knives, so it would be difficult to determine exactly with such diffusion. Best regards, Jim

5th September 2006, 04:33 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jim, I've also seen this exact feature on recent decorative Indian kukhri.

6th September 2006, 01:52 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	Hi Andrew, That seems to fall into place well as a great deal of modern examples of such classical weapons seem to derive from northwestern regions of India, particularly Rajasthan. While this motif is of course extremely simple, it seems distinctive in its application on items from regions described. All best regards, Jim

6th September 2006, 04:13 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Tibet? Bhutan? Just a wild guess. Steve

6th September 2006, 05:54 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	mid late 20 century tibetan

8th September 2006, 05:04 AM	#8
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	A tibetan Khampa knife. I've had several pass through my hands over the years.....

8th September 2006, 05:05 AM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	That leather bit on the sheath will sometimes be ray skin on the smaller ones.

8th September 2006, 10:38 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	And because the world revolves around dha, I offer this interesting comparison, which was picked up in Yunnan Province, So. China: The scabbard is not typical of a dha, which usually transition to a flat tip, but it is a style that seems associated with the Tai of Yunnan Province. Maybe they got it from further West?

9th September 2006, 03:23 PM	#11
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	it is a boan or bonan traditional knife,, although this one may be a chinese copy,,,,,,,,, bonan are , i think the smallest group in china,, anyway most chinese who know of them know mostly only they have good knives,, a guy on the british blades forum,, had a good collection of older ones ,, http://www.britishblades.com/forums/...ight=mongolian id say this is a chinese copy,, the bonan are moslem people living somewhere just north east of tibet,, the speek a mongol language but ar emore as the setteled locals in the area,, normaly their knives are of a rather high quality, and ushaly they have good laminated blades,, the main difference to these and the other mongolian form and the tibetians knives it the different form of hanger and the bronze sheaths,, the chinese have copied these , and mongolian and tibetian knives and massproduced them over the last 200 years or so,, many of the knives the mongols and tibetians used were chinese made, as the chinese could make it cheaper,, and with interesting materials , like ray skin,, which ,, isnt vary common , in say tuva,, or mongolia,, the native ones generaly have better steel blades,, and the chinese ones come with things like chopsticks , pickel forks,and chinese decorations on them , chinese seem to have been oblivious to the natives taste,,

10th September 2006, 12:00 AM	#13
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	the chinese trousse is a chinese version of the traditional mongolian and manchu knives,, the knife styles native to china are quite different.. many times the chinese produced these knives to sell to the nitive populations that boarded china,, also they became popular in korea and japan, they are not originaly a chinese knfie,, and for the most part were only possessed by the richer classes in china,, as the avverage chinese used the local national forms of knife,, the chinese created their own style of these knives, adding many fancy tools and chinese decorations,, aswell as dome different blade forms,, still as i said, you see many of these knives with chinese fittings on them in places as far away as tuva .. the chinese massproduced them in the 19th centuary on a very large scale,, and dont seem to have made them specificaly for the local groups they were sellign them to,, i remember reading a book,, dont remember the title , long time ago , but it was written by an english solider, in the book he commented that in hongkong ... sometime in 1900 , there was a fine array of chinese copies of japanese swords, and native knives and swords,, all of chinese make, on display in the shops and markets there,, seems they were producing them by the ton,, like those bone or ivoery katanas