Interesting sword for comment

RSWORD · 9th March 2006, 02:19 PM

I would like some feedback on this sword. It is quite interesting with some unusual features. As you can see from the pics, it is a wide blade, measuring 2 1/2" wide at the hilt with a short tang. The taper is quite gradual, finishing at 1 7/8" at the tip. The tip is rounded and seems to be made this way. Two things that you would not pick up from this picture is that the blade is very thin, perhaps from a very long service life, but is of good steel as the blade exhibits great flex and rebound and also, interestingly, the blade is single edged. In the book, Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths, Yucal mentions that the Mamluks and Ottomans treasured swords from N Africa which he mentions were of high quality, very thin steel. This piece exhibits a lot of age but would love to get some additional thoughts about possible origin of this piece.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2006, 03:15 PM

How long is the blade - 29½"?

ingelred · 9th March 2006, 03:41 PM

Hello,

could it be an executioner's sword?
The round tip and thin blade are as far as I know characteristical for this kind of sword.
Are there symbols e.g. a wheel or gibbet on the blade?

Greetings, Helge

BluErf · 9th March 2006, 04:44 PM

Ok, I'm just wild-guessing, but the short tang and the 'fuller' in front of the tang makes this sword very interesting. Could it be originally mounted as a patta or something?

ham · 9th March 2006, 06:47 PM

RSWORD,

Image is little more than a tease I'm afraid, but for what we can see I think your analysis is a good one. Let's see some close detail photos.

Ham

RSWORD · 10th March 2006, 04:19 AM

Thanks for the feedback thusfar. To answer everyones question:

Jens- You were close. The blade is a little bit over 30" in length with a 2" long tang

Ingelred- While you do find executioner swords with rounded tip and sometimes of thin cross section, I do not believe this particular example to be such a weapon. There are no markings anywhere on the blade, at least, that are visible and decipherable

BluErf- I believe the short tang was the style of the day for this sword. I suspect it would have been adhered into the handle and the area just below the tang that you are seeing is where the "langet" of the guard blocked that area of blade for many a year, if not centuries, from any cleaning so what is left is a dark patination that gives some small clue as to how the hilt may have looked.

Ham- I am glad to see the overall profile at least peaks a bit of curiosity. Better detailed pictures will certainly help in providing more thought and I will be happy to provide those in a few days when I return home and look forward to additional comment at that time.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 04:32 AM

Hi Rick,
This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well?
I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres.

Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara.

All the best,
Jim

RSWORD · 13th March 2006, 01:59 AM

Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang.

RSWORD · 14th March 2006, 10:38 PM

I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

ariel · 15th March 2006, 12:17 AM

I know nothing about swordmaking.
Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

PUFF · 15th March 2006, 10:50 AM

The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

RSWORD · 15th March 2006, 02:15 PM

Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style.

Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

ham · 15th March 2006, 05:45 PM

Rsword,

I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please:

Ham

B.I · 15th March 2006, 10:58 PM

hi rick,
very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations.
the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images).
also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always).
i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier.
i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later.
as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

RSWORD · 16th July 2006, 02:55 AM

I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts?

Rivkin · 16th July 2006, 04:59 AM

The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 06:17 AM

Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade.

Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??

RSWORD · 16th July 2006, 06:25 PM

Thanks for the additional feedback. It is interesting to note that one of the colleagues I showed the piece seemed to recall some similar styled examples he had seen in a museum in Yemen. However, no literature or pictures from that museum and it may be a dead end lead. I acquired this piece from Czernys last year and they had it described as African but I felt it certainly was not African given it's overall dimensions and profile. I need to follow up with them to see if they have any provenance on the piece. I do agree that this sword has the possibility to be quite early. The short tang would have been suitable for a cast hilt which would have sit squarely on the shoulders of the blade and the tang adhered which is obvious as we can see the remnants of this pitch. One gamble would be to attempt to carbon date the pitch as it is an organic material but I run the risk of the blade being rehilted numerous times in it's life and the results would be inconclusive if anything but an early date was returned. Still, to further the research it may be worth doing.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 06:43 PM

While certainly you may get some organic pitch residue from the tang and carbon date it. This will only get you date, which may or may not resemble the age of the blade itself, as you said. The problem is, We have not seen or known of any mid-eastern swords which use this type of hilt construction. Arab broadswords used some kind of peening, with some rivets at times. Later arab sabres used a complex kind of hilt construction alongside rivets and wire wrapping. The only swords that I know of with used pitch adhesive for attachment from the mid-east are the Qajar era, persian "revival" swords, although the dimensions and "style" of your blade is totally different to those swords. My thought is that this sword originally had a proper tang, that was altered and reduced at some point of its lifetime to allow for a strange hilt construction. This blade seems to resemble arab swords from the early Islamic era, to late abbasid, yet the tip it different. Yet it still looks like mamluk 15th century sword blades.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 06:45 PM

Rick,

If you're really interested with this, have you considered using the Japanese way of dating blades according to tang corrosion. I dont know but it may work.

IainN · 16th July 2006, 09:53 PM

Thought this might be possibly interesting to the discussion. Certain similarities caught my eye. From the calendar of Georgian weapons just posted by Rivkin. Labeled as 12-13th century. The hilt looks like it could possibly work on the type of tang on the blade under discussion. Of course I can't see if it's peened or not...

Anyways though it was worth adding to the mix of possibilities.

S.Al-Anizi · 16th July 2006, 10:01 PM

Ian, I dont think that this sword is possibly of Georgian origin. First, its wootz, I dont know if Georgian smiths worked with that metal or not, but I dont think so. Also, the tang on Rick's blade is too short for such a hilt.

Rivkin · 17th July 2006, 12:33 AM

Until 12th century Tbilisi was an arab colony; Caucasus was a battlefield between arabs, locals, northern steppe people - alans and khazars and later turkoman-seljukes.

Attached are arab-influenced christian georgians, VI-XIth centuries, and an arab from arabia-iraq, XIth century. These are the nearly the only swords I was able to find that virtually do not taper. And yes, georgians did use wootz.

9th March 2006, 02:19 PM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Interesting sword for comment I would like some feedback on this sword. It is quite interesting with some unusual features. As you can see from the pics, it is a wide blade, measuring 2 1/2" wide at the hilt with a short tang. The taper is quite gradual, finishing at 1 7/8" at the tip. The tip is rounded and seems to be made this way. Two things that you would not pick up from this picture is that the blade is very thin, perhaps from a very long service life, but is of good steel as the blade exhibits great flex and rebound and also, interestingly, the blade is single edged. In the book, Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths, Yucal mentions that the Mamluks and Ottomans treasured swords from N Africa which he mentions were of high quality, very thin steel. This piece exhibits a lot of age but would love to get some additional thoughts about possible origin of this piece. Attached Images

13th March 2006, 01:59 AM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Hi Jim. I appreciate the additional thoughts. I had thought about this blade possibly being an early Kattara blade but then I got to thinking about most examples I have seen and while they all had the thin blade in common and rounded tip, they did not have the width this blade has. Most I have seen had blades that were probably not over 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" wide at the hilt then tapering. Many say that the Kattara is based on early Arab blades and while I try not to be overy optimistic, I have a gut feeling this sword blade has some fairly significant age to it. As Ham mentioned, some more detailed pictures would be helpful. Here are 3 pictures, 2 of which are of the tang, and 1 of a strange small circle on the blade near the tang which is basically corroded over but perhaps was a marking at one time, maybe a kayi? If one uses the Japanese method of studying the patination on the tang to date a blade, then this tang exhibits the signs one would expect for a very old blade. It is always very hard to tell from the pictures things such as the patination color but perhaps some glues will be given from the shape of the tang. Attached Images

15th March 2006, 05:45 PM	#13
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Rsword, I am beginning to get a sense of this blade but we really need to see macro images of both sides of this portion please: Ham Attached Images

16th July 2006, 02:55 AM	#15
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I have been continuing my research on this piece. One way of research is to poll colleagues to get their opinion so I had this with me back in March at Timonium. I received quite a wide variety of opinion as to where this piece originated and potential age. So, I decide the best way to further the research was to have one side of the blade polished to reveal any metallurgical details. The blade turns out to be wootz steel. The pattern is very faint, not very visible, but definitely there. So, this would rule out an European trade blade and this would rule out Africa as far as Kaskara or Takouba blade. The blade, while simple looking in pictures, is quite well forged, very well tempered and the steel is quite hard, not only on the edges but the body as well. It is extremely flexible and sharp. As Philip put it, it was made for business. Also, we were able to determine other things from the polish. The tang is not seperately forged on but integral with the blade. The fullers are forged into the blade and run right up to the tang. The tip was made this way. I have added two additional images, one is a close up of the tang area, and the other is a close up of the faint wootz pattern(probably mostly lost due to lack of heat control during forging) so that with this additional information we may collectively have new opinions about this piece. Thoughts? Attached Images

16th July 2006, 09:53 PM	#21
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	Thought this might be possibly interesting to the discussion. Certain similarities caught my eye. From the calendar of Georgian weapons just posted by Rivkin. Labeled as 12-13th century. The hilt looks like it could possibly work on the type of tang on the blade under discussion. Of course I can't see if it's peened or not... Anyways though it was worth adding to the mix of possibilities. Attached Images

9th March 2006, 03:15 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	How long is the blade - 29½"?

9th March 2006, 03:41 PM	#3
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, could it be an executioner's sword? The round tip and thin blade are as far as I know characteristical for this kind of sword. Are there symbols e.g. a wheel or gibbet on the blade? Greetings, Helge

9th March 2006, 04:44 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, I'm just wild-guessing, but the short tang and the 'fuller' in front of the tang makes this sword very interesting. Could it be originally mounted as a patta or something?

9th March 2006, 06:47 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	RSWORD, Image is little more than a tease I'm afraid, but for what we can see I think your analysis is a good one. Let's see some close detail photos. Ham

10th March 2006, 04:19 AM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for the feedback thusfar. To answer everyones question: Jens- You were close. The blade is a little bit over 30" in length with a 2" long tang Ingelred- While you do find executioner swords with rounded tip and sometimes of thin cross section, I do not believe this particular example to be such a weapon. There are no markings anywhere on the blade, at least, that are visible and decipherable BluErf- I believe the short tang was the style of the day for this sword. I suspect it would have been adhered into the handle and the area just below the tang that you are seeing is where the "langet" of the guard blocked that area of blade for many a year, if not centuries, from any cleaning so what is left is a dark patination that gives some small clue as to how the hilt may have looked. Ham- I am glad to see the overall profile at least peaks a bit of curiosity. Better detailed pictures will certainly help in providing more thought and I will be happy to provide those in a few days when I return home and look forward to additional comment at that time.

10th March 2006, 04:32 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Rick, This is an extremely interesting blade and certainly does appear to have some age to it. Without going further into the files here, I am just wondering if this might be a somewhat earlier blade for an Omani kattara. It seems they favored high flexibility in thier blades, which typically had centrally fullered form as well as the very rounded tip. Although typically the kattara blades were longer (about 36") possibly they had shorter examples as well? I always thought it was interesting that the takouba typically has such a rounded tip, which suggests use of slashing cuts, and Omani influences are seen further into the Sahara in the guardless Manding sabres. Just perspective, not discounting the possibility this may very well be an early Islamic blade possibly proto-kattara. All the best, Jim

14th March 2006, 10:38 PM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I wanted to bump the thread since I have added pictures. Looking forward to additional thoughts. Ham? Jim? Thanks.

15th March 2006, 12:17 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know nothing about swordmaking. Naive question: doesn't the tang look welded to the blade?

15th March 2006, 10:50 AM	#11
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The black stuff could be welding oxide or Black pitch which 's used for mounting.

15th March 2006, 02:15 PM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Ariel- It does look that way however that is not the case. When you look closely at that area, you can see that the area in question has corroded from where a hilt once was located and it is the shape of this corrosion which gives clues as to the hilt style. Puff- There is remnants of some type of adhesive. I believe due to the short tang that it would have been adhered via some type of substance. Mixed in this is some remnants of something organic. However, the black coloration is primarily due to patination and not adhesive or weld oxide. I know the difference.

15th March 2006, 10:58 PM	#14
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, very interesting piece to discuss. not my field of course, but happy to throw in some random observations. the tang seems uneven and not very symetrical. i wonder if the tang has been cut out of the top of the blade. the shoulder of the blade seems too uneven to be made by the bladesmith. also, there are two grooves on the tang. could these be the extended fullers (cant tell whether they stop at the top of the blade from the full images). also, the tang seems a little thin and rule of thumb says that it should be thicker than the blade (generally but not always). i will always opt for late trade blades and hope i am wrong and it turns out to be something earlier. i get the feeling the rounded off tip was never intentional and wonder if had a transformation (in the tip, tang and hilt) at some point in its life. the evidence of 'witness marks' could possible lead to a kaskara or even a tulwar hilt. i dont feel that it is early as the blades yucel mentions were of very high quality (straight bladed, multi fullered). the eneveness of the fullers make me feel its later. as i said, just random observations and look forward to the close up images of the region ham suggested.

16th July 2006, 04:59 AM	#16
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	The only such blade I have seen was an XIth century sword from Arabia. I think it is possibly a fantastic find.

16th July 2006, 06:17 AM	#17
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Thanks for bringing this up again Rick, I always wanted to discuss this. May I ask where you got it? And if you asked its previous owner where he obtained it? I think you may have a VERY old piece here, no newer than 5 centuries. As others have pointed out arab, the closest arab style ive seen is those Syrian swords in Dr.Yucel's book, but this one's tip is quite round, which means a cutter, not a cut-and-thrust. With the wootz, this is probably either Yemeni or Syrian, pre-15th century, if indeed it were arab. However, that tiny tang does not suite arab hilts and designs at all. I would rule out the Kattara, as the tang is too short for Kattara hilt, which is usually quite long, can be classified as a hand-and-a-half. The tang seems to be the mystery of this blade. Rivkin, I would love to see that piece. Have you got pics??

16th July 2006, 06:25 PM	#18
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for the additional feedback. It is interesting to note that one of the colleagues I showed the piece seemed to recall some similar styled examples he had seen in a museum in Yemen. However, no literature or pictures from that museum and it may be a dead end lead. I acquired this piece from Czernys last year and they had it described as African but I felt it certainly was not African given it's overall dimensions and profile. I need to follow up with them to see if they have any provenance on the piece. I do agree that this sword has the possibility to be quite early. The short tang would have been suitable for a cast hilt which would have sit squarely on the shoulders of the blade and the tang adhered which is obvious as we can see the remnants of this pitch. One gamble would be to attempt to carbon date the pitch as it is an organic material but I run the risk of the blade being rehilted numerous times in it's life and the results would be inconclusive if anything but an early date was returned. Still, to further the research it may be worth doing.

16th July 2006, 06:43 PM	#19
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	While certainly you may get some organic pitch residue from the tang and carbon date it. This will only get you date, which may or may not resemble the age of the blade itself, as you said. The problem is, We have not seen or known of any mid-eastern swords which use this type of hilt construction. Arab broadswords used some kind of peening, with some rivets at times. Later arab sabres used a complex kind of hilt construction alongside rivets and wire wrapping. The only swords that I know of with used pitch adhesive for attachment from the mid-east are the Qajar era, persian "revival" swords, although the dimensions and "style" of your blade is totally different to those swords. My thought is that this sword originally had a proper tang, that was altered and reduced at some point of its lifetime to allow for a strange hilt construction. This blade seems to resemble arab swords from the early Islamic era, to late abbasid, yet the tip it different. Yet it still looks like mamluk 15th century sword blades.

16th July 2006, 06:45 PM	#20
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Rick, If you're really interested with this, have you considered using the Japanese way of dating blades according to tang corrosion. I dont know but it may work.

16th July 2006, 10:01 PM	#22
S.Al-Anizi Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arabia Posts: 278	Ian, I dont think that this sword is possibly of Georgian origin. First, its wootz, I dont know if Georgian smiths worked with that metal or not, but I dont think so. Also, the tang on Rick's blade is too short for such a hilt.

17th July 2006, 12:33 AM	#23
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Until 12th century Tbilisi was an arab colony; Caucasus was a battlefield between arabs, locals, northern steppe people - alans and khazars and later turkoman-seljukes. Attached are arab-influenced christian georgians, VI-XIth centuries, and an arab from arabia-iraq, XIth century. These are the nearly the only swords I was able to find that virtually do not taper. And yes, georgians did use wootz. Attached Images