![]() |
![]() |
#1 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
On the Gurkha site they used to have the below statement, and it is sill in the current GM pamphlet the ‘Kukri’, they also have this statement;
‘Most hill villages in earlier days would have a Smith (or Lohar of the Kami clan) who forged kukris for the people: now there is a good deal of mass production (Definitely not always the case), though the best are still made by skilled craftsmen. In World War II Gurkha recruits were issued with mass-produced government kukris but nearly all brought back their own from their first leave. Weight, balance and fit are crucially important.’ This quotation is often referred to by some collectors as gospel that private kukri were carried in both WWI and WWII by Nepalese Gurkhas, but it never struck me as being right. Certainly in WWI there is evidence QGO did carry their own kukri, but not in WWII, and I have found no evidence of Gurkha Rifleman carrying their own kukri in both WW’s. However to be absolutely sure I decided to do further re-search, so that I could confirm that Gurkha Rifleman carrying private kukri was a myth; I then decided to ask the famous Gurkha Officer and Author Lt. Col JP Cross (WWII, Malaya and Borneo) his opinion on this subject; JP; “I expect that men took their issue kukri with them when they went on leave as a weapon was always needed in the Hills. I can't quite see why a man would have changed his issue kukri for a personal one when at home as he could have got a new issue one when he got back to his holding unit or his battalion" I have also been fortunate enough to get to know Captain McCalla (WWII Gurkha Officer), and he had this to say; “In olden times the kukhri was the equivalent of our axe & a multi purpose tool which would also be useful as a weapon of defence or attack. Many mountain folk regarding neighbours with suspicion & untrustworthy (every man for himself ) Kukris would all be made locally.......Army issue would be machine made & all men wore the same as otherwise if they used their own, there would be no standardisation” “All men carried regulation IA kukris” JP Cross also contacted QGO Capt Bakansing Gurung (joined in 1933 1/6 GR), who features in the very important Historical book by JP Cross and Buddhiman Gurung 'Gurkhas at War', about this matter, Captain Bakansing had this to say; "That none of his contemporaries had ‘private kukri’, all carried issued kukri". Then both Captain Lalbahadur Rana and Major Yambahadur Gurung contacted another Gurkha Veteran for me, QGO Captain Bhaktasing, and he had this to say; 'They were not issued kukri while they were recruited in the recruiting centre. A kukri was issued for jungle training phase after he completed basic training that was not as smooth as nowadays. He has had taken the kukri with him after his completion of training and posted to the regiment 2 GR They have used for big and ceremonial parades and the guard duties. They have polished and sharpened for that events. He took the kukri with him while the regiment deployed in NW frontier (I.e. Afghanistan border) They use to travel with kukri in uniform while they come to Nepal leave. He has taken the kukri with him while they deployed in WWII, Singapore. They have not taken their own village kukri to the regiment. He has not taken any his own kukri from Nepal. As far he concerned those days the strong iron and better kukris are made in Dehradoon and Kunraghat by Nepali expert Ironsmith for the Gurkhas issued kukri Before 1816 those areas belong to Greater Nepal and mostly Nepalese tribes are leave there' Major Gerald Davies (post WWII Gurkha Officer) Curator of the GM in Winchester felt that the 7th GR might have had cause to use personnel kukri from being in North Africa and then going up through Italy; I was able to contact the last remaining 7th GR British Officer who fitted the bill, Major Deny’s Drayton (7th GR WWII) who ended up at Monty Casino, said; ‘That Gurkhas only carried IA issue kukri which had wooden handles that were of *stick tang construction, and no private kukri were carried’. This term ‘stick tang’ came about after discussing the various handle types with Major Drayton. I would like to thank all the above for their tremendous help in this matter, and for their enthusiasm towards my re-search. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
Top to Bottom WWII Kukri;
Mk2 WWII full tang kukri (carry over from WWI) 8TH GR kukri, stick tang IA kukri, stick tang IA kukri, stick tang IA kukri, stick tang (style used in WWI) Mk3, full tang ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 865
|
![]()
Fantastic! Thanks Sirupate for sharing your research & photos
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,189
|
![]()
I second what Nathaniel said. Many thanks.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
Many thanks guys, although the real thanks should go to all the Gurkhas that helped in my re-search, top people
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Query,
I have a Kukri, Pre WWII made circa mid1930s so I have been told, it was taken from a dead Japanese soldier in Burma, there is no disputing the line of provenance either as I have the family history and the military stamped and post marked wooden crate this Kukri another item came back to the US in. Any ideas behind this? Were 1930 made Kukri standard army issue? Thanks Gav Last edited by freebooter; 12th June 2010 at 12:55 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
Any pics Gav? that would be a tremendous help, cheers Simon
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]()
Simon, image attached;
Details - overall out 40cms, blade 29cms, spine 7.6mm, Koudi is 11.3mm from the bolster hilt 17.6mm at the narrow part, pommel 53.2mm high. Hollow ground blade. Thanks Gav |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
It looks like a very nice small Villager kukri,quite what a Japanese soldier was doing with it I have no idea, unless it was taken from domiciled Nepalese that they killed in a village?
ps Partial tang kukri of that type are always hard to date Last edited by sirupate; 13th June 2010 at 10:38 AM. Reason: addes info |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]()
Nice Kukri Gav, It appears pre. or very early WW2 probably private purchase but military style kukri to my eyes. I would say it could easily have been collected of a Gurkha during WW2, The loop round the scabbard looks designed to be hold in a military frog rather than a natives belt?
As for the Argument put forth by Simon although interesting, Id rather take the word of the offcial "Brigade of Gurkhas" website myself for several reasons. Not least that they know rather more Gurkhas & Gurkha officers than the esteemed few Simon has spoken with, who according to Simon were apparently unaware of such practice? And of course to describe it as a "myth" is rather strange , the idea that no Gurkha would ever buy or use a kukri he liked in the arms emporiums that riddled so many British Indian Garrison towns & Hill Stations were Gurkhas would take local leave.{Or from Nepal if he was lucky eniough to have home leave. And of course the major point must be that for Simon to try & proove such a thing is to try proove a negative which is logicaly impossble & is generally known as "argumentum ad ignorantiam" ("appeal to ignorance"} in which is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true. Spiral Last edited by spiral; 13th June 2010 at 03:45 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
Simon, whilst I commend your exploration on a notion, but to me this discussion cannot be an absolute. I know many a good professional soldier who in one way or another, pack a little more than his standard issue kit, the personal and psychological edge that these non standard items brings to the individual is what keeps these warriors ticking and adds a touch of comfort and reassurance to each one...sometimes these changes are so subtle with the exchange of one item for another or better quality that looks so very similar but does a better job in the eyes of the individual. In a war zone no one is going to be looking at his mates Kukri next to him and be thinking hey, that really doesn't look like mine I'll be telling the CO when we get through with this, heck I don't even think the CO would care if the job was done so long as next time they are on regimental parade he is displaying the correct kit. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 13th June 2010 at 03:26 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]()
While I agree with your sentiments & conclusian Gavin , I must also point out in all fairness that many non Gurkha British troops also carried private purchase kukri in that theartre at that time.
Spiral |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, Texas USA
Posts: 257
|
![]()
Indeed, there were many possible routes by which a private-purchase kukri could have come into Japanese hands:
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
Gav |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 58
|
![]()
For what it is worth I have a non issue Kukri that was carried by an officer (later to be CO 5th GR) in Burma during WW11 and later in conflicts with Pakistan and the Naga Wars.This Kukri comes with impeccable provenance. So whilst it might not have been the norm it certainly did happen. Rod
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |||||||
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]() Quote:
I presented this information to the GM, and other Gurkha Officers (in early 2009, before the re-vamped MOD site), who accepted my findings. (The whole précis I did was originally done for the Nepal Army Museum in Kathmandu, by request.) Quote:
Quote:
1/As JP said “I can't quite see why a man would have changed his issue kukri for a personal one when at home as he could have got a new issue one when he got back to his holding unit or his battalion” 2/ Also as Chas had to say “all men wore the same as otherwise if they used their own, there would be no standardisation” “All men carried regulation IA kukris”, 3/ Not to mention QGO Capt Bakansing Gurung Joined 1933 (plenty of time for home leave!), "That none of his contemporaries had ‘private kukri’, all carried issued kukri". 4/ Then there is QGO Captain Bhaktasing MC, “They have not taken their own village kukri to the regiment. He has not taken any his own kukri from Nepal.” 5/ Major Deny’s Drayton (who was in both the N. African and Italian campaign) Had this to say; “Gurkhas only carried IA issue kukri, no private kukri were carried”. I also have a kukri that was taken back to Nepal by a Gurkha when WWII finished to have as a user in his village (which I picked up in Nepal), which has a good quality Nepalese scabbard. I also have handled a Mk1 that taken back to Nepal as a user (which has the nut ontop of the handle, due to repair), and this certainley fits in with what QGO Captain Bhaktasing MC had to say about kukri, which rather fly's in the face about Gurkhas getting their own kukri. Quote:
Also your kukri was collected off a dead Japanese soldier, and there were plenty of domiciled Nepalese in Burma during WWII lets not forget, who helped many a British and Indian army soldier when in need. It quite possible the Japanese soldier acquired the kukri from one of them, although I do not know about Japanese regs regarding carrying of non issued equipment, except in regard of Officers carrying family heirloom Nihonto. Quote:
Also in General Sir Walter Walkers (a good friend of JP’s) autobiographical book, ‘The Fighting General’ by Tom Pocock, Walter Walker 2nd in command of 4/8th GR in Burma having replaced Colonel Twist after he was killed (later taking full command), covers how strictly enforced regimental standards and regulations were upheld, and how inspections were frequent and closely done. There was an occasion when he found a Gurkha with a dirty kukri, he was not best pleased, goodness knows what would have happened if it was not an IA regulation issue!! This is one of his slogans that he had his troops digest and act on; ‘It is the ambition of every man of the 8th GR to redden his kukri and bayonet in the enemy’s blood’. Quote:
Quote:
British Gurkha Officer carry in WW2 First of all not all British Offices carried kukri as JP recalls “I never carried a kukri, along with several other British Officers” However many did; such as Major-General M. Callan who used a Quarter Master issued kukri, as he recalls “I am sure I wore a kukri in combat uniform, a QM issue like everybody else in the battalion, which must have been 90% ‘hostilities only’ enlistments apart from only one BO (the CO) and GOs and older ORs from pre-war” . Major-General Mike Callan sent details of his kukri, and they are as follows; “I have dug out my old issue kukri from the garden shed. It has been used as a utility tool in the garden, just as a Gurkha would. (You know of course that the common belief that kukris can only be drawn to shed blood is complete nonsense). Mine is now very battered and rusty, but after reading your notes I took a closer look at it. The first thing is that it has no maker's mark, and seems to differ from the ones you described. The dimensions are: Length from tip of blade to tip of handle - 42 cm. From the tip of blade to the start of the angle (approx 15 degrees) on back of blade - 19.5 cm, and from there to the join at handle - 12.5 cm. Depth of blade at widest part - 5.3 cm, and thickness of blade at back before it tapers down towards the point - 7 mm. The hardwood handle is 10.5 cm long, with a steel plate on the end, and has two steel bands round (to prevent splitting) and is secured to the blade by two rivets. The centre of the handle is carved to provide the grip. It is a nicely balanced weapon with a good "feel”. The weight is 548 gms.” Since the correspondence Major-General Mike Callan kindly sent me down his kukri so I could handle it and document it for myself. It is very similar to one in the GM, which has a different Kaudi and brass rings and butt plate. Major-General M. Callan IA QM issue kukri from WWII; ![]() Chas and some other Officers had their kukri made by the armourers; Captain C. McCalla recalls “…have my own kukhris which were made for me by the (Regimental) armourer in Dharamsala”. I have only seen pictures of Captain McCalla’s kukris and the one he carried not only looks like a very nice and well made kukri, it also has as Captain McCalla points out, the perfect balance for a kukri. When asked why some Officers carried Quarter Master issue kukri, some not at all and some like himself who had kukri made for himself this was his explanation regarding his Battalion “Not all Officers went to the Regtl Centre & therefore wore issue kukri from the QM. Many Officers were commissioned in India & joined Gurkha Regiments (seconded from Brit Army & were never in the Indian Army). Others like myself were commissioned in UK & volunteered to join a Gurkha Regt. We were then gazetteered straight into the Indian Army proper.” A picture of one of Chas's Gurkhas (No.1 Bren, No2 had just been killed) after some fighting in Abya; ![]() And here are Chas's kukri; ![]() Another Article that didn't seem correct. With kind permission of the Burma Star Association; This is part of an article by Mr. Hannah’s son of his father’s recollections (Trooper 2884497 William Hannah of the 9th Gordon Highlander’s) of his experiences in WWII, who passed away in the late 1990’s. 'Out at the defensive perimeter, the Gurkhas were stationed, 2 men to a trench. It was standard practice never to put 3 Gurkhas in a trench, as with 2, one will guard, 1 will sleep. With 3, 1 will watch, 1 will sleep, and 1 will strip off, grease his body, and draw his Ancestral Kukri to go looking for Japanese souvenirs. Only this blade requires to taste blood before returning to it's sheath, not the Sheffield steel one that the army issued, that was used for splitting sticks and opening tins, and could be obtained simply for the asking, as it had no honour. If a Gurkha fell in combat, his comrades would retrieve his Ancestral Kukri, for return home, and vesting with the next eldest son. Gurkhas were not normally seen carrying bayonets, preferring the Kukri. *At Kohima, it is said that a Japanese officer carrying his traditional Samurai sword and a Gurkha soldier squared off at knife fighting distance in a trench, and both drew steel' * I have come across 3 rcorded incidents of Gurkhas fighting with kukri against Japanese sword, and JP in his 450 interviews came across one instance. This is an interesting article, in that it has been used by some collectors and kukri enthusiasts (it is with reluctance that I looked into an old soldiers story and recollections, who fought for our freedom, but I felt much was wrong with the article), as in part of using to prove the both the carry of so called ‘private’ kukri and so called ‘ancestral kukri’. This is what Chas had to say about it; “Dear Simon, I can only say that with regard to any wild stories about Gurkha's....... just believe it. !!!!!!!!!!” (In other words a load of nonsense) Then Chas had this to say; “It is more than likely that some kukhri's were handed down in their home & in that respect they could be deemed Ancestral” This was in respect to their home in Nepal, and as Chas (and others) had said previously “All men carried regulation IA kukris”, The Curator of the Gurkha Museum, Major Gerald Davies had this to say; “Dear Simon, I have never heard of the practice for trenches described below. In war, section strengths are dependant on casualty figures and continued reinforcements to replace the casualties. Normally a section is 8 x men. To say there will be 2, 3 or 4 men per trench is not realistic, as it depends on the ground, the width of the defensive layout, the enemy tactics they use against you, and the role of the unit (offensive or defensive). You do the best with what numbers you have. The story of greasing bodies is fanciful I am afraid – I have never heard or seen any tactical books advocating this action. The drawing of kukris and tasting blood is also a myth that has no truth or reality. The kukri is a utilitarian implement as well as a weapon. Sheffield steel is not used in kukris, so that is fanciful – rail steel or car springs make up the majority of kukri blades in the past 65 years. The retrieval of ancestral kukris for return home is also fanciful. If a soldier died in service his possessions were* auctioned in Company level auction sales to raise the best price. The total money accrued was then sent to the deceased family. Gurkhas did carry bayonets and many photographs show that to be the case. It was part of regimental dress regulations for combat dress. In restricted areas such as jungle, in buildings (FIBUA), trench warfare, the kukri was favoured by Gurkhas over the bayonet”. *This is very well described in the Book ‘Quartered Safe Out Here’ by George MacDonald Fraser JP had this to say: mostly nonsense. I had not heard about 'greasing the body' but I very much doubt it, where would a man have got the grease from? JP also remembered that a Gurkha did come back in just under dress in WWI, in France with just his kukri, but had this to say on the subject; “I cannot for the life of me think why a man, especially one from a country where it probably would not be so cold, in the cold of November (when it happened, towards the battle of Neuve Chapelle) would want to go hunting for souvenirs, especially at night, which could be picked up almost anywhere on the battlefield - as my father did. I expect he went on a one-man raid - or sat in a pile of shit and felt the only way to go on was in bare buff.” JP also said that in 450 interviews for his book (Gurkhas at War) nothing like that was mentioned. Last edited by sirupate; 17th June 2010 at 07:52 AM. |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]()
2 kukri displayed at the Gurkha museam as battlefield or theartre pickups. The top one in Egypt probably from the 3rd Gurkha rifles the lower one from Gallipoli in 1915.
Neither look very official issue or standarised to me.... ![]() ![]() & then again 4 Gurkhas in WW1 displaying there kukri. Again not very standardised. Looks like at least 3 different types of kukri to me. ![]() Spiral ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | ||
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]() Quote:
“acquired by a trooper of the Queen’s Own Oxfordshire Hussars, c.1917 in Egypt, and is potentially from 3rd Gurkha Rifles.” 1st Kukri;The quality of the kukri has in reality only two potential sources; 1/ Lets not forget that this practise was only done if time allowed; ‘If a soldier died in service his possessions were auctioned in Company level auction sales to raise the best price. The total money accrued was then sent to the deceased family’ It is feasable that the kukri was a dead British Officer's kukri, whose face and uniform may have been badly mutilated, and this may have been the reason behind the word ‘potentially’. 2/ That it was a kukri for mess orderlies, here the word ‘acquired’ springs to mind! Before we go into the second kukri this is what I had to say in my précis about this period, which is relevant to this section; There is a picture of British Gurkha Officers, of 1/1st Gurkha Rifles, in discussion with Nepalese Gurkha Officers in France during WWI. From the picture it would appear that the British Officers are not wearing kukri, but that the Nepalese Gurkha Officers are. In foreground, of the picture, one of the Nepalese Gurkha Officers is wearing a kukri on his left hip, which has what appear to be metal rings going around the handle and a metal butt plate, and another Nepalese Gurkha Officer (a bit further into the photo) is wearing a wooden handled kukri, again on his left hip, rather than the regulation carry of rifleman on the centre back, or the right back. In WW1 Nepalese Gurkha Officers including Naiks and Havildars etc. were allowed to carry personnel kukri. 2nd Kukri;Displayed directly below the alloy handled kukri in a green scabbard, is a kukri potentially used by10th Gurkha Rifles, and was picked up by Naval Officers during the Gallipoli campaign. We also have to remember that the 2/10 GR had problems getting hold of kukri, and ended up making them themselves for the new recruits, of which I have one. Quote:
Before we cover that, it is well known that there were huge supply problems for kukri and equipment in general (ref; 2/10 GR.) during WW1, due to the huge influx of men, which would not have been catered for in the normal run of things. Of course this was the same in WWII, for example the new 8th GR training centre at Quetta, by 1943 suddenly found itself with 6,000 Gurkhas!! Regarding the problems of obtaining kukri, JP had this to say ‘If Ordnance Branch asked Regimental Depots to help out and held a pool of such to supplement other sources, then yes, If not no’. In other words, other sources were used to obtain what kukri they could get. This of course would lead to variations, but the kukri would still be ‘Sarkari’ issue. Also one has to take into account that to replace Gurkha casualties in 1914 and 1915, they milked other Gurkha Battalions from India for replacements, therefore Gurkhas from different battalions were often mixed in. So about this picture you have presented; 1/ The Havildar on the left; is not of rifleman rank, and was entitled to carry his own kukri, if he so wished, this did not appear to be the case By WWII. 2/ The two middle Gurkhas; They may well have been pr-WW1 enlistments, with Battalion regulation or original Sarkari issue kukri, from when they joined. 3/ The Gurkha on the right; He may well have originated from another battalion, so a different style of issue kukri, or it may be a replacement Sarkari sourced issue kukri, but not his own private purchased kukri! Once again there are in reality only two possibilities, it was a British Officers kukri, or a Nepalese Gurkha officers kukri, as mentioned before. Indeed British Officers often wore large kukri in that period, as you know, I have one from that period, spec; It has a 39cm long blade of the Rana period style, a belly of 7.1cm, a smooth spine, with a width of 9mm by the handle, tapering down to 2mm just before the point, and a ridge-less, hollow forged cross section, weighing 790 grams. It has a thick wooden stick tang handle of 11.2cm in length with a nice curve to help it fit the hand. The handle has a protective metal butt plate which has a basic attachment to the stick tang. For such a large kukri it is beautifully balanced and handles like a much lighter kukri, it is possible that this kukri was made by one of the Battalion armourers. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]() Quote:
The fact is I didnt quote the Gurkha museam re. the found Egyption & Gallipoli theartre kukris. I paraphrased it in an accurate manner. ![]() Where as despite you accusing me of bieng missleading, you have blatenly deliberatly missquoted what the Museam Identification card actualy says. Which Is. {& I quote.} "This kukri which is believed to have belonged to the 3rd Gurkha rifles was aquired in Egypt c.1917 by a trooper of the Queens Own Oxfordshire Hussars." {End quote.} Also The Gallipoli kukri Picked up by a chief pety officer makes no referance "potentialy" or otherwise to any particular Gurkha regiment. It pointless trying to deal in facts with someone who missrepresents evidence in this manner. Spiral |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 | |||
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]() Quote:
Indeed you are correct about the card on the kukri; ![]() I confess to getting muddled up between Major Gerald Davies description of the said kukri 'potentialy' and what was said on the card. Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 987
|
![]()
Play nice, people. There is no place for personal attacks in a civil academic debate. ::dusts off his thread-locking key::
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
|
![]() Quote:
![]() ![]() There is a lot of good info and debate here that no doubt will cause further research to be conducted and presented, this is a good thing ![]() ![]() However IMHO, with very few things in this world being absolute, especially where human interface is had. Can the initial statement title of this thread be proved beyond reasonable doubt, IMHO not, as there a lot of may, maybe and possibly words used above in response to images, but saying this, there still is a world of scope to be explored so lets keep this open and see what develops ![]() My exacting knowledge only runs so deep but the green velvet sheathed example in the pic above looks to me to be a Nepalese presentation Kukri of as high standard and similar to the one I show sold here; http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s148_full.html Not something that would have been worn in the field but something that was found in the field (the auction notion indicated private purchase surely?), again not conclusive without provenance but it offers other suggestions to the notion. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 18th June 2010 at 12:17 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
The write up doesn't in anyway imply private purchase Gav, it implys that it was potentialy a presentation peice by the Royal Court of Nepal to a Diplomat?
It would be nice if the seller actualy said whose Estate it was from, and why they think it was most likely a presentation peice, so that their statement could be verified. The kukri has classical Nepalese shape, and the writing on the spine is often found on kukri with that shape and style. Here is a picture from my 2008 visit to Nepal of Prithvi Narayan Shah's kukri, from when the curator of the National Museum in Nepal, Bhess Narayan Dahal took me around, talking me through the kukri there; ![]() Green velvet covered scabbards of the type in the picture from the GM, are most likley to be either to be officers kukri, or kukri for ceromonial wear by the likes of Mess Orderlies. I think the statement has to be disproved Gav, as it was obviously against regulations to carry non issue kukri, until around the 1950's. And obviously using photo's as evidence is not the anwser, unless one knows the exact circtumstances behind the photo, and who is what and from where, which battalion they were transfered from etc etc. as I answered to Jonathan's picture in a prev post. Last edited by sirupate; 18th June 2010 at 09:42 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | ||
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]()
Interesting to start with we have....
Quote:
Yet after I post a picture that features several varient kukri which includes a Gurkha NCO namly a Havildar {Sergeant] He then states. Quote:
mmmmm. pause for thought as Haviladars are not QGO and but know Simons state Seargents can carry there own kukri as well. ![]() The velvet scabbarded kukri is clearly not standard issue, other than that we can only surmise, {Presentation/private purchase or cerimonial seem most likley though assuming the scabbard is original to the kukri of course.} One should also remeber each regiments bandsmen where intitled to wear more exotic kukri though & in front line theartre they would operate as the regiment own strecher bearers. {Separate from either Army Bearer Corps or feild hospital units.} So thats another possibility.{Interestingly the 2nd man from left in the photo I posted seems to most likley be wearing a red cross style armband as used by some strecher bearers, although his kukri matches that of the rifleman next to him.} I dont know if this helps anyones clarity or just muddys the picture further But Heres two regimental or rather battalion style kukri from WW1 era that would have been actualy purchased & paid for by the troopers of the 2/8 th Gurkha Rifles who carried them. One can see variation between the styles although both were clearly at the very least regiment or battalion approved & marked as such by the regiments armourers. spiral ![]() ![]() But for all these statements,possiblitys, probabilitys, thoughts & "confusians" in the above posts the real answear of the "official" veiw should at least be obtainable. It will be in the various regimental & battalion standing orders for these time periods and that at the very least the "Official stance" would be prooven. ![]() Spiral Last edited by spiral; 18th June 2010 at 02:58 PM. Reason: photo links & clarity. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |||||||
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
'Before we go into the second kukri this is what I had to say in my précis about this period, which is relevant to this section; There is a picture of British Gurkha Officers, of 1/1st Gurkha Rifles, in discussion with Nepalese Gurkha Officers in France during WWI. From the picture it would appear that the British Officers are not wearing kukri, but that the Nepalese Gurkha Officers are. In foreground, of the picture, one of the Nepalese Gurkha Officers is wearing a kukri on his left hip, which has what appear to be metal rings going around the handle and a metal butt plate, and another Nepalese Gurkha Officer (a bit further into the photo) is wearing a wooden handled kukri, again on his left hip, rather than the regulation carry of rifleman on the centre back, or the right back. In WW1 Nepalese Gurkha Officers including Naiks and Havildars etc. were allowed to carry personnel kukri.' But once again this is irrelevant to the original article! Quote:
Quote:
Second picture; First of all, it does seem strange to me that one would present a picture as evidence, without knowing the circumstances and background behind the picture!! Before we cover that, it is well known that there were huge supply problems for kukri and equipment in general (ref; 2/10 GR.) during WW1, due to the huge influx of men, which would not have been catered for in the normal run of things. Of course this was the same in WWII, for example the new 8th GR training centre at Quetta, by 1943 suddenly found itself with 6,000 Gurkhas!! Regarding the problems of obtaining kukri, JP had this to say ‘If Ordnance Branch asked Regimental Depots to help out and held a pool of such to supplement other sources, then yes, If not no’. In other words, other sources were used to obtain what kukri they could get. This of course would lead to variations, but the kukri would still be ‘Sarkari’ issue. Also one has to take into account that to replace Gurkha casualties in 1914 and 1915, they milked other Gurkha Battalions from India for replacements, therefore Gurkhas from different battalions were often mixed in. So about this picture you have presented; 1/ The Havildar on the left; is not of rifleman rank, and was entitled to carry his own kukri, if he so wished, this did not appear to be the case By WWII. 2/ The two middle Gurkhas; They may well have been pr-WW1 enlistments, with Battalion regulation or original Sarkari issue kukri, from when they joined. 3/ The Gurkha on the right; He may well have originated from another battalion, so a different style of issue kukri, or it may be a replacement Sarkari sourced issue kukri, but not his own private purchased kukri! Quote:
Also if they were privately bought by the Gurkhas, which is completely ignoring what the Gurkha and Gurkha Officers have said previously, the armourer (glad to see you now agree with me about the armourers marking the kukri) would not have stamped the kukri, as they were not issue! Which they obviously were!! Also the stamp on the bottom one (in the bottom picture) doesn't appear say 2/8th! Picture below; ![]() ![]() Also I have one exactly the same as your top one (in your top picture,which I have told you about before), clearly battalion issue Jonathan, picture of Official Armourer stamp on said kukri; ![]() Quote:
|
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,773
|
![]()
I have been enjoying this thread but the posting are getting too big for my monitor so could you make them a little smaller in the future
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
|
![]()
No dueling allowed mates .
![]() Maybe you should just agree to disagree . ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 373
|
![]()
Sorry Ted, I'll do my best.
I understand Rick, however I think one has to ask penertrating questions of someone, that has IMHO a highly flawed view of what Gurkha's could or could not carry kukri wise pre-1947, and whose opinions have influenced so many people about kukri. I would think that it would be very hard indeed to argue against not only Gurkhas, but British Gurkha Officers who were there and done the business. They should know exactly what they are talking about, especially the likes Major General Mike Callan, who not only served with the Gurkhas, but also in the Royal Army Ordnance, etc. and the likes of Lt. Col. JP Cross, renowned Gurkha Officer, and Gurkha author, who is the only non Nepalese to be granted permision to have his own land and property in Nepal, by the Royal Family. IMHO their view carries far more weight, than someone that has taken articles at face value, like the one by Mr. Hannah’s son of his father’s recollections (Trooper 2884497 William Hannah of the 9th Gordon Highlander’s), and looked at pictures and and comming to conclusions without knowing the circumstances behind those pictures and so on. Just my two pennies worth Rick, cheers Simon Last edited by sirupate; 21st June 2010 at 01:46 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
|
![]()
Understood Simon .
I'd just hate it if ill feelings arose during this discussion . That's all Mate . |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
|
![]()
You make me laugh Simon you come out with such a pompos statement yet only A month ago you were claiming the Army Bearer Corps didnt carry kukris! That is Till I prooved you wrong once again. You now say you refer to Corparals & sargents as commisioned Officers{QGO} thats not "loose" its tottaly wrong.
Im done with this Rick, as you basicaly implied its pointlesss. But just to add to Simons confusion. I always liked this bit published in 1952 in Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxfords Official history of the originaly Assam based 8th Gurkha Rifles. {I Think one battalion went to NWF about 1914 the other to France.} "The men had to pay for there own kukris,though the leather frogs were an ordanance supply." Spiral |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|