4 matchlock guns for comment

Cerjak · 5th May 2012, 12:19 PM

Hi everybody

This is 4 matchlock guns for my collection I guess from INDIA or YEMEN .
I Would like to know more about this guns ,the only information I fond was from Robert Elgood ( Firearms of the Islamic World).
So if somebody could tell me more about this gun it will be nice.
Any comment on it will be welcome.

kind Regards

Cerjak

Cerjak · 5th May 2012, 12:20 PM

more pics

Mefidk · 5th May 2012, 03:11 PM

Nice guns!

I've always assumed these came from the arabian peninsula, so I'd say Yemen rather than India, but more than that I don't know. You can see mine in the post below this on about the Indian battlement gun.

I for one will be watching this thread in the hope that some of the more knowledgable folk will be able to help

Chris

Cerjak · 5th May 2012, 07:54 PM

Realy nice gun Chris this induan gun is a monster !
I hope that sombody will help us to know more about those gun

Regards

David R · 5th May 2012, 08:10 PM

Generaly guns with the padded butt are Arabian, Indian stocks tend to be narrow and of a pentagonal section. Afghan / Sind tend to be the deeply curved hooked style. Personaly I know of no exceptions, though that does not mean there are non.

colin henshaw · 5th May 2012, 08:54 PM

Very nice, I like this type of Arab matchlock. They are from Yemen (but maybe the barrels were made in India). I had one some years ago, but sold it to my regret now.

If you have any of the travel books by Freya Stark, some are illustrated there. Seemingly they had a heavy recoil, hence the large butt piece.

Mefidk · 6th May 2012, 11:13 AM

Thanks for the info guys. Unfortunately I don't have the travel books, but I assume these were used from horseback. They are light by comparison to both the Afghan and Indian guns I have, and slightly shorter, although not carbine length.

The bore diameter of mine is 15mm, not the biggest of my examples by a long way (Sind example is 18mm), but more or less average I'd say.

Richard G · 6th May 2012, 03:29 PM

Hello,
I agree these guns are associated with Southern Arabia, the enlarged butt is the distinctive feature, but I do not think this necessarily means they were made there. There was much trade and many links with other countries around the Indian Ocean and in particular between the Hadhramaut and Southern India. Many arabs served as mercenaries in the Nizam of Hyderabad's army and there is a particular type of jambiya, often considered to be Yemeni but which I think might well be actually from Hyderabad. I think it quite probable that many of these guns may also have been made in Southern India or Hyderabad for sale to and use by these arabs.
As Colin mentions, Freya Stark's books have pictures of these guns in the Hadhramaut. Wilfred Thesiger's books have pictures of of them in the Tihama and Dhofur. I have also seen Martini-Henry's and Gras' with this type of butt. I have also seen a hybrid with the Indian type of butt David describes.
It would seem to me the decoration on the butts of the second pair of guns suggest more of the Indian influence.
I'm attaching a couple of pictures from the Thesiger collection in the Pitt-Rivers museum which I hope comes out.
The first is a Mahra couple in Dhofur, and the enlarged butt is clearly visible.
The second is a curiosity, It is from Abyan in the Yemen and seems to show a shackled prisoner, still wearing his jambiya!. As they all look remarkably jolly, perhaps it was simply a pose.
Regards
Richard

Cerjak · 6th May 2012, 07:53 PM

Thank you all for your contribution in this discussion ,very nice to see the picture from Richard
Hopping that more infos and pictures will come in this discussion...
Kind regards

Cerjak

Norman McCormick · 6th May 2012, 11:16 PM

Hi,
My two for comparison. Apologies for the picture quality.
Regards,
Norman.

Dom · 7th May 2012, 04:39 PM

Hi Cerjak
just for the pleasure, even if it wasn't requested

translation mark's , not guaranteed 100%

AMAL - either - MADE BY
KHANAFI - either, just a name

all the best

à +

Dom

Cerjak · 11th May 2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Cerjak
just for the pleasure, even if it wasn't requested

translation mark's , not guaranteed 100%

AMAL - either - MADE BY
KHANAFI - either, just a name

all the best

à +

Dom

Fantastic Dom ,I was not expect to find the translation
Thank you !

Cerjak

5th May 2012, 12:19 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	4 matchlock guns for comment Hi everybody This is 4 matchlock guns for my collection I guess from INDIA or YEMEN . I Would like to know more about this guns ,the only information I fond was from Robert Elgood ( Firearms of the Islamic World). So if somebody could tell me more about this gun it will be nice. Any comment on it will be welcome. kind Regards Cerjak Attached Images

5th May 2012, 12:20 PM	#2
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	new pics more pics Attached Images

6th May 2012, 03:29 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Hello, I agree these guns are associated with Southern Arabia, the enlarged butt is the distinctive feature, but I do not think this necessarily means they were made there. There was much trade and many links with other countries around the Indian Ocean and in particular between the Hadhramaut and Southern India. Many arabs served as mercenaries in the Nizam of Hyderabad's army and there is a particular type of jambiya, often considered to be Yemeni but which I think might well be actually from Hyderabad. I think it quite probable that many of these guns may also have been made in Southern India or Hyderabad for sale to and use by these arabs. As Colin mentions, Freya Stark's books have pictures of these guns in the Hadhramaut. Wilfred Thesiger's books have pictures of of them in the Tihama and Dhofur. I have also seen Martini-Henry's and Gras' with this type of butt. I have also seen a hybrid with the Indian type of butt David describes. It would seem to me the decoration on the butts of the second pair of guns suggest more of the Indian influence. I'm attaching a couple of pictures from the Thesiger collection in the Pitt-Rivers museum which I hope comes out. The first is a Mahra couple in Dhofur, and the enlarged butt is clearly visible. The second is a curiosity, It is from Abyan in the Yemen and seems to show a shackled prisoner, still wearing his jambiya!. As they all look remarkably jolly, perhaps it was simply a pose. Regards Richard Attached Images

6th May 2012, 07:53 PM	#9
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Thank you all Thank you all for your contribution in this discussion ,very nice to see the picture from Richard Hopping that more infos and pictures will come in this discussion... Kind regards Cerjak

6th May 2012, 11:16 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi, My two for comparison. Apologies for the picture quality. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

5th May 2012, 03:11 PM	#3
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Nice guns! I've always assumed these came from the arabian peninsula, so I'd say Yemen rather than India, but more than that I don't know. You can see mine in the post below this on about the Indian battlement gun. I for one will be watching this thread in the hope that some of the more knowledgable folk will be able to help Chris

5th May 2012, 07:54 PM	#4
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Realy nice gun Chris this induan gun is a monster ! I hope that sombody will help us to know more about those gun Regards

5th May 2012, 08:10 PM	#5
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Generaly guns with the padded butt are Arabian, Indian stocks tend to be narrow and of a pentagonal section. Afghan / Sind tend to be the deeply curved hooked style. Personaly I know of no exceptions, though that does not mean there are non.

5th May 2012, 08:54 PM	#6
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Very nice, I like this type of Arab matchlock. They are from Yemen (but maybe the barrels were made in India). I had one some years ago, but sold it to my regret now. If you have any of the travel books by Freya Stark, some are illustrated there. Seemingly they had a heavy recoil, hence the large butt piece.

6th May 2012, 11:13 AM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks for the info guys. Unfortunately I don't have the travel books, but I assume these were used from horseback. They are light by comparison to both the Afghan and Indian guns I have, and slightly shorter, although not carbine length. The bore diameter of mine is 15mm, not the biggest of my examples by a long way (Sind example is 18mm), but more or less average I'd say.

7th May 2012, 04:39 PM	#11
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi Cerjak just for the pleasure, even if it wasn't requested translation mark's , not guaranteed 100% AMAL - either - MADE BY KHANAFI - either, just a name all the best à + Dom Attached Images