Comments on my father's Keris

okhba3 · 13th February 2005, 01:16 PM

Hi guys,I would like to ask opinion about a Keris that my father has (picture attached). He asked me to find out any information about the Keris, so I read a few books and I try to search information about Keris in the internet. Then I found this discussion forum from Google search engine, and hope that you
guys can help me give any information about my father's Keris. I'm a complete beginner but based on what I have read, even though I'm not certain, I would say that the Keris has Dapur Nogososro, 11 luks. I can't tell about the Pamor. The Keris is probably from Cirebon, West Java.
Thanks in advanced.

Justin · 13th February 2005, 01:33 PM

Im sure some of our more knowledgeable keris collecters will be of more help but my initial impression is that Java is probably the country of origin,but to my unexperienced eyes it also has a lot of Madurese influence.

As to dapur and pamor I wont even hazard a guess,there are infinate variations of both so it can be very difficult to accurately identify the dapur and pamor of a keris.

To me it looks like something isnt quite right with it,the sheath looks far too plain to me for such an ornate keris,although the metal covering the sheath {pendok} looks like it could be swassa {Indonesian rose gold} but that ofcourse will have to be checked by a jeweler.

okhba3 · 14th February 2005, 01:02 AM

Thanks for your comment Justin. Indeed that when I asked my father, the sheath is not original. My grandfather got the Keris in return of someone in desperate need of money, but without the sheath. So he collected bits of gold, and asked someone to made the sheath for the Keris.

Alam Shah · 14th February 2005, 12:42 PM

Please post a few full blade pictures? With a full picture of the keris blade, other details can be posted. In my opinion, the sheath does not do justice to the blade.

okhba3 · 14th February 2005, 04:10 PM

Ok, here is what I've got at the moment, almost full picture of the blade. I will ask my father for another full picture of the blade, but it may take a couple of days, since I don't live with him and he probably cannot send it via email to me.

okhba3 · 16th February 2005, 12:13 AM

few added photos

okhba3 · 10th July 2006, 10:38 AM

Sorry to bring up this old thread. A few weeks ago, there was a Keris exhibition in Jakarta, Indonesia. My father went there and there was a stand for Keris consultation. So my father brought his Keris with him and this is the result according to the consultant:
Keris Luk 11
Dapur Nogososro
Tangguh Mataram
Kinatah Kemarogan
Pamor "Persi Dewata" Segoro Muncar
Perabot Gayaman
Hulu (Hilt): Gading Putra 1

I don't know exactly what each of those means and I cannot translate it properly to English (except probably for Hilt). Appreciate any comments.

Alam Shah · 10th July 2006, 11:44 AM

A little explanation about the consultation remarks:

Keris Luk 11 = The blade has 11 meandering curves known as luks.
Dapur Nogososro = The blade design, is in the Nogososro (dragon) form.
Tangguh Mataram = is the estimated period when it was made.
(For more info: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/intr...n/kingdoms.htm)
Kinatah Kamarogan = is the gold/brass-works, relief decoration on a blade with.
Pamor "Persi Dewata" Segoro Muncar = is the pattern found on the blade.
Perabot Gayaman = is the sheath form, meant for everyday use (not for officail ceremonies).
Hulu (Hilt): Gading Putra 1 = is the ivory carving design of the hilt (ukiran).

Hope that helped.

Mudi · 10th July 2006, 02:37 PM

Salam Pak Shah

Good job to explain the various terms. I think this keris is from Cirebon, and not Madura. Sorry that for me the photos are not sharp, and it would be good to also see the peksi.

Alam Shah · 10th July 2006, 04:04 PM

Salaam Mudi, welcome to the forum.

You come from a place where its kerises and badik interest me a lot.

As for this keris, it's fittings does suggest from Cirebon.

okhba3 · 11th July 2006, 03:12 AM

Hi Pak Alam Shah and Pak Muhdi,
thanks for the explanation and comments. That's a really good summary. My father was born in Cirebon and indeed got the Keris when he was there.
Further on the Tangguh Mataram part and the link provided, I would presume that this Keris is from the second Mataram period (17th to 18th Century) ?

nechesh · 11th July 2006, 03:55 AM

Hi Okhba, welcome to the forum. When your father gets a chance i hope he might be able to make some clear, in focus and up close images of this keris. It appears nice, but i am not convinced it is of the age of 17th or 18th century. Keep in mind also that tangguh is an estimate and a classification. It could be problematic if we attempt to apply it to any specific dates. Sometimes blades fall into a particular tangguh, but weren't crafted until some time after the historical period of that kingdom. It is not necessarily correct to equate tangguh with the actual dating of a keris. Also, there is often an overlapping of influences in most keris. Experts judging tangguh often need to weigh whether a blade is more one tangguh than another when coming up with their assessment. Often experts will disagree. Sometimes even the same expert will give one tangguh at one time and a different one at another. I don't know enough about how to judge tangguh to know if that is the case with your father's keris. It does appear to be a nice keris though.
Have you seen this keris yourself firsthand. I ask because in the photos the kinatah looks very coppery. I wonder whether the color might be off on the photos, or if this might be gold with a very high copper level (rose gold?) or whether iot is gold at all. I suspect it has gold in it, but from the pictures i just can't tell. Better pictures would be helpful.

Alam Shah · 11th July 2006, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by okhba3

Hi Pak Alam Shah and Pak Muhdi,
thanks for the explanation and comments. That's a really good summary. My father was born in Cirebon and indeed got the Keris when he was there.
Further on the Tangguh Mataram part and the link provided, I would presume that this Keris is from the second Mataram period (17th to 18th Century) ?

Tangguh is a very subjective issue, but based on the consultants opinion, it's should be second Mataram. Looking at the blade.... hmmm, perhaps clearer pictures would help.

okhba3 · 11th July 2006, 04:59 AM

Hi Nechesh,
I have already seen the Keris myself a couple of times. Last time I saw it is about a year ago, that was when I started this thread. At the time my father would like to give the Keris to me, but I was going to move to Sydney, Australia and I'm afraid it will be difficult to bring the Keris with me. I supposed the Keris would be quarantined. Have you guys had any experience bringing a Keris with you by airplane?
I like the Keris myself but the problem is I cannot tell whether it is gold or copper because I don't have enough knowledge. My father is 73 years old and his eyesight capability is decreasing, so it's difficult to ask him to take a proper photograph. I probably should do it myself when I have time.

Mudi · 11th July 2006, 05:18 AM

In Indonesia we can fly with keris. If wrapped in sarong the pilot will take it up with him. After landing he will give you your keris.

For shipping usually a sealed wood box is need and then no problem. You can ask the big shipper like FEDX, TNT, and DHL about that.

kai · 11th July 2006, 09:28 AM

Hello,

Australia has pretty tight weapon laws, so it may be wise to contact Alan Maisey who will be able to tell in detail what import requirements need to be met with.

However, the most problematic part will be the ivory hilt - you'll need a lot of time and paperwork (as well as associated fees) every time you want to cross an international border with it (of course, this also applies for shipping). I'd certainly didn't want to risk confiscation of a family pusaka...

Regards,
Kai

okhba3 · 16th July 2006, 03:55 PM

Thanks Mudi and Kai,
I guess I'll keep the Keris in Indonesia for now.

13th February 2005, 01:16 PM	#1
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Comments on my father's Keris Hi guys,I would like to ask opinion about a Keris that my father has (picture attached). He asked me to find out any information about the Keris, so I read a few books and I try to search information about Keris in the internet. Then I found this discussion forum from Google search engine, and hope that you guys can help me give any information about my father's Keris. I'm a complete beginner but based on what I have read, even though I'm not certain, I would say that the Keris has Dapur Nogososro, 11 luks. I can't tell about the Pamor. The Keris is probably from Cirebon, West Java. Thanks in advanced. Attached Images

14th February 2005, 01:02 AM	#3
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	The sheath is not original Thanks for your comment Justin. Indeed that when I asked my father, the sheath is not original. My grandfather got the Keris in return of someone in desperate need of money, but without the sheath. So he collected bits of gold, and asked someone to made the sheath for the Keris.

14th February 2005, 12:42 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Request for full blade...photo Please post a few full blade pictures? With a full picture of the keris blade, other details can be posted. In my opinion, the sheath does not do justice to the blade.

14th February 2005, 04:10 PM	#5
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	more photo on the way Ok, here is what I've got at the moment, almost full picture of the blade. I will ask my father for another full picture of the blade, but it may take a couple of days, since I don't live with him and he probably cannot send it via email to me. Attached Images

16th February 2005, 12:13 AM	#6
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	more photos few added photos Attached Images

13th February 2005, 01:33 PM	#2
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Im sure some of our more knowledgeable keris collecters will be of more help but my initial impression is that Java is probably the country of origin,but to my unexperienced eyes it also has a lot of Madurese influence. As to dapur and pamor I wont even hazard a guess,there are infinate variations of both so it can be very difficult to accurately identify the dapur and pamor of a keris. To me it looks like something isnt quite right with it,the sheath looks far too plain to me for such an ornate keris,although the metal covering the sheath {pendok} looks like it could be swassa {Indonesian rose gold} but that ofcourse will have to be checked by a jeweler.

10th July 2006, 10:38 AM	#7
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	My father's keris identification Sorry to bring up this old thread. A few weeks ago, there was a Keris exhibition in Jakarta, Indonesia. My father went there and there was a stand for Keris consultation. So my father brought his Keris with him and this is the result according to the consultant: Keris Luk 11 Dapur Nogososro Tangguh Mataram Kinatah Kemarogan Pamor "Persi Dewata" Segoro Muncar Perabot Gayaman Hulu (Hilt): Gading Putra 1 I don't know exactly what each of those means and I cannot translate it properly to English (except probably for Hilt). Appreciate any comments.

10th July 2006, 11:44 AM	#8
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Keris Consultation review... A little explanation about the consultation remarks: Keris Luk 11 = The blade has 11 meandering curves known as luks. Dapur Nogososro = The blade design, is in the Nogososro (dragon) form. Tangguh Mataram = is the estimated period when it was made. (For more info: http://old.blades.free.fr/keris/intr...n/kingdoms.htm) Kinatah Kamarogan = is the gold/brass-works, relief decoration on a blade with. Pamor "Persi Dewata" Segoro Muncar = is the pattern found on the blade. Perabot Gayaman = is the sheath form, meant for everyday use (not for officail ceremonies). Hulu (Hilt): Gading Putra 1 = is the ivory carving design of the hilt (ukiran). Hope that helped. Last edited by Alam Shah; 10th July 2006 at 11:55 AM.

10th July 2006, 02:37 PM	#9
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	Salam Pak Shah Good job to explain the various terms. I think this keris is from Cirebon, and not Madura. Sorry that for me the photos are not sharp, and it would be good to also see the peksi.

10th July 2006, 04:04 PM	#10
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Salaam Mudi, welcome to the forum. You come from a place where its kerises and badik interest me a lot. As for this keris, it's fittings does suggest from Cirebon.

11th July 2006, 03:12 AM	#11
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Hi Pak Alam Shah and Pak Muhdi, thanks for the explanation and comments. That's a really good summary. My father was born in Cirebon and indeed got the Keris when he was there. Further on the Tangguh Mataram part and the link provided, I would presume that this Keris is from the second Mataram period (17th to 18th Century) ?

11th July 2006, 03:55 AM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Okhba, welcome to the forum. When your father gets a chance i hope he might be able to make some clear, in focus and up close images of this keris. It appears nice, but i am not convinced it is of the age of 17th or 18th century. Keep in mind also that tangguh is an estimate and a classification. It could be problematic if we attempt to apply it to any specific dates. Sometimes blades fall into a particular tangguh, but weren't crafted until some time after the historical period of that kingdom. It is not necessarily correct to equate tangguh with the actual dating of a keris. Also, there is often an overlapping of influences in most keris. Experts judging tangguh often need to weigh whether a blade is more one tangguh than another when coming up with their assessment. Often experts will disagree. Sometimes even the same expert will give one tangguh at one time and a different one at another. I don't know enough about how to judge tangguh to know if that is the case with your father's keris. It does appear to be a nice keris though. Have you seen this keris yourself firsthand. I ask because in the photos the kinatah looks very coppery. I wonder whether the color might be off on the photos, or if this might be gold with a very high copper level (rose gold?) or whether iot is gold at all. I suspect it has gold in it, but from the pictures i just can't tell. Better pictures would be helpful. Last edited by nechesh; 11th July 2006 at 04:26 AM.

11th July 2006, 04:59 AM	#14
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Hi Nechesh, I have already seen the Keris myself a couple of times. Last time I saw it is about a year ago, that was when I started this thread. At the time my father would like to give the Keris to me, but I was going to move to Sydney, Australia and I'm afraid it will be difficult to bring the Keris with me. I supposed the Keris would be quarantined. Have you guys had any experience bringing a Keris with you by airplane? I like the Keris myself but the problem is I cannot tell whether it is gold or copper because I don't have enough knowledge. My father is 73 years old and his eyesight capability is decreasing, so it's difficult to ask him to take a proper photograph. I probably should do it myself when I have time.

11th July 2006, 05:18 AM	#15
Mudi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Makassar, (Ujung Pandang), Sulawesi, Indonesia Posts: 38	In Indonesia we can fly with keris. If wrapped in sarong the pilot will take it up with him. After landing he will give you your keris. For shipping usually a sealed wood box is need and then no problem. You can ask the big shipper like FEDX, TNT, and DHL about that.

11th July 2006, 09:28 AM	#16
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello, Australia has pretty tight weapon laws, so it may be wise to contact Alan Maisey who will be able to tell in detail what import requirements need to be met with. However, the most problematic part will be the ivory hilt - you'll need a lot of time and paperwork (as well as associated fees) every time you want to cross an international border with it (of course, this also applies for shipping). I'd certainly didn't want to risk confiscation of a family pusaka... Regards, Kai

16th July 2006, 03:55 PM	#17
okhba3 Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia Posts: 10	Thanks Mudi and Kai, I guess I'll keep the Keris in Indonesia for now.