Katar dagger for comment old Tanjore hilt ?

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,

Here is a katar dagger I got recently and I'd like your
opinion on it please.
It looks like an old model for the hilt ,
Tanjore style ?
The blade has a massive reinforced tip.
True inlay remains on the blade fixation .
Scabbard can be recent.

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello dear members,

Here is a katar dagger I got recently and I'd like your
opinion on it please.
It looks like an old model for the hilt ,
Tanjore style ?
The blade has a massive reinforced tip.
True inlay remains on the blade fixation .
Scabbard can be recent.

Hello francantolin

I think the hilt is South India. Qatar seems to me a "hybrid": the handle is from South India, and the blade is from North India. And I think you're right in assuming the scabbard is new.

[francantolin]

Hello and thank you Turkman Khan for your message,

For me, looking for similar pieces on the web ,
17-18th century is correct for the hilt age
18th-9th century for the blade and 20th century for the scabbard

What do you think ?
Every comment is welcomed

Kind regards

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello and thank you Turkman Khan for your message,

For me, looking for similar pieces on the web ,
17-18th century is correct for the hilt age
18th-9th century for the blade and 20th century for the scabbard

What do you think ?
Every comment is welcomed

Kind regards

Hello francantolin

This is a good Katar. But it seems to me that the hilt is the 18th century, the blade is the 19th, but I agree with you with the scabbard - the 20th century (most likely late).
I do not insist on these dates. Perhaps those forum participants who specialize in Indian arms and armors will say more precisely

[Nihl]

Hi everyone, I'm one of the "forum participants who specialize in Indian arms and armors" here to give my 2 cents . Though I do agree with the dates speculated by Turkoman, I must express my doubts about the hilt being from Thanjavur (tanjore) and the blade being more northern. Instead, I would offer the attribution of the whole piece coming from the southern deccan, based on its form and manner of decoration.

Firstly, for the blade, while it is of a more simplistic northern form, "the north", generally speaking, did not make katar blades individually to be later mounted in different hilts. Indeed, while most northern katar blades are forge-welded, brazed, or peened onto their hilts, the blades are not typically produced from very far away, and instead the blade, hilt, and assembly centers are all close enough that most regions in northern india developed their own distinct katar styles, with different styles of blades and hilts from one another. Additionally, northern katars invariably have "shoulders" extending from the sides of the blade that fit with cutouts in the sidebars to facilitate being brazed/welded/peened together. These shoulders would have to be removed to allow the blade to fit in a more southern style of hilt, so I think it is unlikely the blade on the katar here is from the north.

In regards to the hilt, my attribution here is primarily due to the style of decoration. Thanjavur schools, simply speaking, produced items that were way more ornate than this, and, due to the region being overwhelmingly Hindu, Thanjavur products almost always feature explicit Hindu iconography in the form of animals and mythical beasts, and other beings that can be related to hindu deities explicitly. The fact that the decoration here is so relatively abstract and can be best described as "floral" means a more northern, islamic school is a more reasonable attribution for this hilt. Of course, too far into the north and this style of katar hilt is completely dropped, so that's why I give "southern deccan" as a compromise for my attribution.

Finally, I must give a "grain of salt" style of disclaimer here as most of this information comes from my own private research, none of which has been published or peer-reviewed or anything of that sort, so I cannot provide any official sources to back up my attribution.

[Turkoman.khan]

Originally Posted by Nihl

Hi everyone, I'm one of the "forum participants who specialize in Indian arms and armors" here to give my 2 cents . Though I do agree with the dates speculated by Turkoman, I must express my doubts about the hilt being from Thanjavur (tanjore) and the blade being more northern. Instead, I would offer the attribution of the whole piece coming from the southern deccan, based on its form and manner of decoration.

Firstly, for the blade, while it is of a more simplistic northern form, "the north", generally speaking, did not make katar blades individually to be later mounted in different hilts. Indeed, while most northern katar blades are forge-welded, brazed, or peened onto their hilts, the blades are not typically produced from very far away, and instead the blade, hilt, and assembly centers are all close enough that most regions in northern india developed their own distinct katar styles, with different styles of blades and hilts from one another. Additionally, northern katars invariably have "shoulders" extending from the sides of the blade that fit with cutouts in the sidebars to facilitate being brazed/welded/peened together. These shoulders would have to be removed to allow the blade to fit in a more southern style of hilt, so I think it is unlikely the blade on the katar here is from the north.

In regards to the hilt, my attribution here is primarily due to the style of decoration. Thanjavur schools, simply speaking, produced items that were way more ornate than this, and, due to the region being overwhelmingly Hindu, Thanjavur products almost always feature explicit Hindu iconography in the form of animals and mythical beasts, and other beings that can be related to hindu deities explicitly. The fact that the decoration here is so relatively abstract and can be best described as "floral" means a more northern, islamic school is a more reasonable attribution for this hilt. Of course, too far into the north and this style of katar hilt is completely dropped, so that's why I give "southern deccan" as a compromise for my attribution.

Finally, I must give a "grain of salt" style of disclaimer here as most of this information comes from my own private research, none of which has been published or peer-reviewed or anything of that sort, so I cannot provide any official sources to back up my attribution.

Thank you very much for such detailed explanation Nihl.
Very interesting and persuasive.

[francantolin]

Originally Posted by Nihl

Hi everyone, I'm one of the "forum participants who specialize in Indian arms and armors" here to give my 2 cents . Though I do agree with the dates speculated by Turkoman, I must express my doubts about the hilt being from Thanjavur (tanjore) and the blade being more northern. Instead, I would offer the attribution of the whole piece coming from the southern deccan, based on its form and manner of decoration.

Firstly, for the blade, while it is of a more simplistic northern form, "the north", generally speaking, did not make katar blades individually to be later mounted in different hilts. Indeed, while most northern katar blades are forge-welded, brazed, or peened onto their hilts, the blades are not typically produced from very far away, and instead the blade, hilt, and assembly centers are all close enough that most regions in northern india developed their own distinct katar styles, with different styles of blades and hilts from one another. Additionally, northern katars invariably have "shoulders" extending from the sides of the blade that fit with cutouts in the sidebars to facilitate being brazed/welded/peened together. These shoulders would have to be removed to allow the blade to fit in a more southern style of hilt, so I think it is unlikely the blade on the katar here is from the north.

In regards to the hilt, my attribution here is primarily due to the style of decoration. Thanjavur schools, simply speaking, produced items that were way more ornate than this, and, due to the region being overwhelmingly Hindu, Thanjavur products almost always feature explicit Hindu iconography in the form of animals and mythical beasts, and other beings that can be related to hindu deities explicitly. The fact that the decoration here is so relatively abstract and can be best described as "floral" means a more northern, islamic school is a more reasonable attribution for this hilt. Of course, too far into the north and this style of katar hilt is completely dropped, so that's why I give "southern deccan" as a compromise for my attribution.

Finally, I must give a "grain of salt" style of disclaimer here as most of this information comes from my own private research, none of which has been published or peer-reviewed or anything of that sort, so I cannot provide any official sources to back up my attribution.

Thank's a lot Nihl for your interesting and detailed message
Perhaps do you (/ someone ) have some pictures for illustrate.
Kind regards