Question of Spear origins

[Gavin Nugent]

The unusual form prompted me enough to add it to the spear collection.

The thrusting tip does have some similarities to Song Dynasty spear heads but that's all I have turned up thus far.

Any one aware of the origins of this spear? An ID would be appreciated.

It is 8'6", the butt is a bronze cap and that's all I know other than the tip looks slightly off centre and the patina is very old. At the tip, I see a hint of an exposed tang going in to the wood but I am uncertain if this is so or if it is just age timber looking this way.

The images are the best I can do for now.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

No takers...guesses...points of interest for further research?

[Nathaniel]

That is a hard one Gavin. Not much info out there on Chinese polearms or pole arms in general so much attention usually goes towards swords, knives, and guns.

[Nathaniel]

Song dynasty spear. Any pictures or references?

Is the spear very heavy? Does it seem like the tang runs far into the shaft....perhaps through the entire piece?

[Nathaniel]

How long is the spear head?

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Nathaniel,

I will know more on the length of the head when in hand some time away.
There is so little info on spears in general unless they're African, that I find unusual versions very interesting and the numbers at home are growing.
I do not think this is Chinese at all, just noting similar shaping to the head. The bronze butt is similar to Moro profiles but the large dome centre at the very end I can not recall seeing nor does the tip form fit Moro regions to my eyes.
Note too the thicker base area and tapering to the head, this too may indicate region

Gav

[katana]

Gav,
this could be a lance....the POB would be a good indication (once you have it 'in hand' )

Interesting piece

Regards David

[colin henshaw]

Hi

Interesting piece. I quite like spears, polearms etc., but as you say not much published on them. Anything in Stone's Glossary ?

It does have a bit of a Chinese look to me, coincidentally the ridged bronze ? sleeve near the point, reminds me of some handles on archaic Chinese swords...

Regards.

[koto]

doesn't look like Chinese

[Gavin Nugent]

David,

I think your notation of a lance rings more true than a spear when considering the thicker base of the shaft for counter balance and the tip more akin to armour piercing as is the way with cavalry lances. Interesting now to consider nations that used the horse more than foot in this instance...in my mind it rules out a lot of SEA countries, thank you.

Colin,

I had only looked at the spears pages closely and saw nothing similar but I have yet to thumb through the whole book as entries are often a surprise in his work, never where you'd expect them to be at face value so I will again have a look through.

Koto,

I agree, I do not think it is Chinese though it does have some interesting aspects that are seen on Chinese spear/pole weapons, that being a tang and a supportive collar under the blade to prevent the tang breaking out of the wood....though it lacks rivets typically seen at this point on those weapons. It is a rather unusual form, where do you think it might be from?

Gav

As an extra thought, the domed butt is more in line with something suitable in the saddle where infantry lances/spears typically had a butt spike.....

[katana]

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by katana

Gav,
without any evidence, my 'gut feeling' is that this is Indo persian and if so, likely 'pre' colonial (ie before the European type lance gained 'favour' ) There is a possibility that it could be used from an Elephant ....Indian elephants are smaller than their African brothers.

Regards David

David,

Very plausible origins.

Communications with another astute member also suggested India. I wasn't going to start in India as a point of elimination but since several notations 'suggest' India I have started there tonight.

Although not of the type, Elgood presents spear blades with tangs and collars as did another reference to boar hunting in India....all showing 'loosely' similar profiled collars o various degree but partial tangs rather than what appears to be a full tang on this piece...maybe a step closer.... .....

Thanks

Gav

[katana]

G'day Gav,
This maybe Rajput ....the Sang often have the 'ringed collar' and usually a pronounced central rib. Although most Sang are 'all steel', some variants have a wooden shaft. Rajputs also used camels .....and many lances attributed to the 'camel cavalry' are 8 foot or so long.....a similar length to yours.

I am wondering whether the blade on yours was more leaf shaped and has had a later modification either through damage to one or both edges or as an improvement (perhaps to improve penetration) as yours still exibits a strong mid rib

Below is an image from Artzi's site, although this is a curved bladed version the ring collar is self evident.

Best
David

[Gavin Nugent]

Well I have had about 30 spears and pole arms arrive on Friday and I've been enjoying going over each one in detail and this spear is very interesting.

It is long and it is very thin but strong and flexible though I'm sure I could snap it over my knee with ease today but it would have served as a very efficient weapon in its day when stronger and more supple.

The head, collar and butt cap are all iron with a heavy but perfectly stable age patina and the head is lethal with great piercing ability by design and the edges are so fine they would have been like razors in the day.
The shaft is bamboo which has been fully wrapped with a fine fibrous material and then lacquered thickly to smooth the surface which also shows a painted surface, this alone can point to India for many but...I'll come to that in a second.
The fine head has the iron collar which is actually four pieces stacked atop each other and offers great support for the tang in such fine thin bamboo.

An interesting lance was offered to me on Saturday at the Brisbane arms fair, the size of a typical Sumatran lance on a thin light shaft, it had a head so very similar in design but created slightly different. The most interesting aspect I found was the brass collar it was sitting it, it carried designs that were clearly Thai to my eye....keeping this in mind, perhaps Thailand? It is after all, although in no way ruling out India, so very different from the heavy iron heads seen on the South Indian lances shown above...this thing is in the feather weight division by comparison.

Any thoughts more than welcome.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks to those who have provided input this far....another step towards Thailand perhaps...I'm still looking down this road...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=thailand

Note the spear of similar blade style, collar and thickness (and length if it rests on the ground) resting against this arch at the right (and one on the left)...

Has anyone other than Dan visited the Arms room of the Grand Palace Bangkok to comment first hand?? Nathaniel??

[Andrew]

Gav, I'm going to throw out a suggestion based on my admittedly unscientific "gut" feeling--Cambodia...

[Nathaniel]

Hello Gavin,

Missed your post on this thread otherwise I would have answered. Unfortunately, the three times we been to the Grand Palace, Chakri Maha Prasat hall that houses the arms room was closed. It's closed on the weekend and during the weekday it closes earlier than the temple of the Emerald Buddha which I did not know. I think if I remember right the building with the arms room might close by something like 3pm.

[Jim McDougall]

This is really an interesting thread, so its good to see it back. I really have little knowledge on both the fields of spears and SE Asian weapons, but looked into Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual") to see if anything relevant might be there.
On p.194 (19.13) a 'sang' type spear (with katar style head of Vellore gauntlet form) attributed probably to Mysore and late 16th century has these rings or collars on the socket and in the same illustration is a 'vel' with peepal leaf shaped head, to early 16th c.
It is noted that these collars, termed 'balls' in this text are called 'nala'. Apparantly these are decoration related to certain ankusa which are symbolic of royalty (op.cit. p.21) and much as on the 'vel' lance are stated to reflect the god Murukan.
Perhaps this decoration is significant in this regard?

On. p.192 spearheads in South India carry similar collars just below the flare of the head in varying spaced configuration apparantly the motif from 15th-16th century Vijayanagara. The design still popular during the Mysore wars of 18th century.

While it appears these collared sockets are prevalent in South India, as well of course as in Sri Lanka, it does seem quite possible that the influence might have extended into SE Asian countries including Thailand and Cambodia. I think the enthusiasts of the dha and weapons of these countries would have better insight, but I thought I'd add these notes.

All the best,
Jim

[Nathaniel]

Gavin, love to see some more close ups & sharper pictures of the spear head from different sides and angles when you have time.

[Gavin Nugent]

Andrew, Nathaniel, Jim, Thanks for chiming in.

Andrew I know little of the culture but I am all for Gut feelings. Another well versed in Thai arms collector also said I should likley be looking to the region of Cambodia and surrounds.

What I really need to do when time permits is look at lacquer work items from these regions. When you consider the inner shaft is bamboo and that the 'dips' or waists of each section has been resin wrapped in flaxen fiberous material to create a smooth tapering surface from end to end and then to have the surface lacquered black and painted, someone has gone to a lot of trouble to create a very fine spear.

Nathaniel, I will get more detailed images in the weeks to come.

Thanks again guys...if anything further comes to fruition I am all ears and thanks to Dan for posting that image all those years ago.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Several years ago, I think I cracked this tough nut and only thought to update today...Sri Lanka.

It makes sense to see Sri Lankan spears in the Thai Royal Palace as the paths of Buddhism are long between Sri Lanka and Thailand.

Gavin