Help Identifying a Kindjal/Qama Type and Its Origin

CharlesS · 4th March 2014, 05:31 PM

I am unfamiliar with this type of dagger from the kindjal/qama family. It is certainly short and robust and quality made, but quite a bit less elegant than some kindjals. It almost seems more like a Roman gladius.

The hilt appears to be of rhino horn with silver nielloed rivet caps and the worn green velvet(appears original)covered scabbard is decorated in silver niello with a very unusually shaped chape.

The blade is short, with a somewhat blunted tip compared to most kindjals' long elegant tips, and it is multi fullered in an artistic manner. There is a maker's mark and year or inscription in Arabic.

Overall length: 19.5in.
Blade length: 12.5in.
Blade width: 1.75in.

I'd be most grateful for any help identifying the origin of this dagger and wonder if this particular style has its own name or genre.

Thanks in advance for any help.

TVV · 4th March 2014, 06:44 PM

Lovely kindjal! Based on previous forum discussions and on Kiril Rivkin's and Oliver Pinchot's latest books on Caucasian arms, I believe this is from Western Georgia, Adjara and the region around Trabzon. There have been some claims about a Shapsug origin of the form, but most examples seem to date post the Russian-Circassian war.

I am sure Ariel, who knows more about these than me, will have some comments as soon as he sees the thread. I remember seeing pictures of Greek (Laz) guerilla fighters from the early 20th century wearing similar daggers, but cannot find them right now.

Regards,
Teodor

ALEX · 5th March 2014, 02:59 PM

Nice qama! It certainly has some Caucasian look, but I think it is Ottoman/Turkish, based on niello decorations. Does chape have checkered Van-style motive?

ALEX · 5th March 2014, 05:51 PM

Charles, it's hard to see the handle details, but from far it looks like buffalo horn to me. It'd be quite unusual for the handle of such size and shape to be of rhino horn, and it'll make this qama extremely valuable!!!!!

CharlesS · 5th March 2014, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Nice qama! It certainly has some Caucasian look, but I think it is Ottoman/Turkish, based on niello decorations. Does chape have checkered Van-style motive?

Yes Alex, the chape shows a checkered motif.

CharlesS · 5th March 2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Charles, it's hard to see the handle details, but from far it looks like buffalo horn to me. It'd be quite unusual for the handle of such size and shape to be of rhino horn, and it'll make this qama extremely valuable!!!!!

Alex,

Several others have said it's not rhino. I suspected that it was because it's got that fiberous look of rhino and it's sticky to the touch when wet.

ALEX · 5th March 2014, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Yes Alex, the chape shows a checkered motif.

Charles, see this POST. The last 2 pictures show a typical silver case from Van, Turkey, and Turkish scabbard (likely also made in Van). The checkered pattern is their trademark. The silver niello decoration reminds me of yours, this is why I thought it is more Turkish than Caucasian.
Interesting what Ariel, Kirill and others will think.

CharlesS · 5th March 2014, 06:51 PM

Alex, thanks for so much great input. I also noticed the "wheel" motif in that post you suggested and it is very prevalent on the qama fittings.

CharlesS · 5th March 2014, 07:28 PM

Based on another forum member's input, the Islamic date converts to 1906 on the Gregorian calendar.

ALEX · 5th March 2014, 08:26 PM

The year is 1326 A.H. = 1908 A.D. (depending on calculation system used).
The wheel is a "wheel of life" - quite predominant element in Islamic art.

CharlesS · 5th March 2014, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

The year is 1326 A.H. = 1908 A.D. (depending on calculation system used).
The wheel is a "wheel of life" - quite predominant element in Islamic art.

Alex, spot on the date. I was trying to recall it by memory and should have known better! Thanks again for all your input.

ariel · 6th March 2014, 06:38 AM

South-West Georgia, the Gurian region, border with Turkey, thus the mix of elements. Subsequently, this outline was adopted by the Black Sea Cossack Host.

Check the fullers: old ones had the most beautiful "Tiflis" damaskus pattern.

I have a suspicion ( and please reassure me that I am wrong!) that the tip was broken and re-formed. Usually, this type has rounded and stubby tip; this one is somehow awkward: straight lines.Check the length of the blade and the scabbard: I have a feeling that it is an inch or two too short for his breeches :-)

eftihis · 6th March 2014, 07:05 AM

Hello, once in the past, on a discussion about the "black sea yataghan", i posted this photofrom the book "The industrial heritage of costume design in Turkey" by Pr. Onder Kucukerman. On page 60, there is the photo showing "clothing of muslim villagers and townspeople", in Trabzon 1870. This city is in Laz area of the black sea, or "Pontos" as we call it in Greek. It shows the same type of kinjal.

ariel · 6th March 2014, 02:39 PM

Agree with Eftihis. This entire area was a hodge-podge of multiple Caucasian, Turkish and Greek styles. Although it gave rise to peculiarly idiosyncratic weapons, which is a topic in its own right.
When the Auctions Imperial sale is over, I might bring some examples :-)

And as to dating of Islamic objects, I found nothing better than that:

http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html

CharlesS · 6th March 2014, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

South-West Georgia, the Gurian region, border with Turkey, thus the mix of elements. Subsequently, this outline was adopted by the Black Sea Cossack Host.

Check the fullers: old ones had the most beautiful "Tiflis" damaskus pattern.

I have a suspicion ( and please reassure me that I am wrong!) that the tip was broken and re-formed. Usually, this type has rounded and stubby tip; this one is somehow awkward: straight lines.Check the length of the blade and the scabbard: I have a feeling that it is an inch or two too short for his breeches :-)

Thanks Ariel, as always, for you input.

I don't think the fullers here are Damascus, but need a magnifier as they are so dark. I have to also assume that 1908 would be "later" for one of these.

I have checked on the blade vs. scabbard length, and can't imagine that the blade could be any longer, especially considering that the wooden inner liner would be even shorter than what we are seeing. The outside measurement puts the blade at just over 1/2in. away from the chape's finial.

The blade may be a bit of an oddball, but I do believe both the scabbard and the blade were born together as is.

Thanks again for your input and comments.

4th March 2014, 05:31 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Help Identifying a Kindjal/Qama Type and Its Origin I am unfamiliar with this type of dagger from the kindjal/qama family. It is certainly short and robust and quality made, but quite a bit less elegant than some kindjals. It almost seems more like a Roman gladius. The hilt appears to be of rhino horn with silver nielloed rivet caps and the worn green velvet(appears original)covered scabbard is decorated in silver niello with a very unusually shaped chape. The blade is short, with a somewhat blunted tip compared to most kindjals' long elegant tips, and it is multi fullered in an artistic manner. There is a maker's mark and year or inscription in Arabic. Overall length: 19.5in. Blade length: 12.5in. Blade width: 1.75in. I'd be most grateful for any help identifying the origin of this dagger and wonder if this particular style has its own name or genre. Thanks in advance for any help. Attached Images

6th March 2014, 07:05 AM	#13
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hello, once in the past, on a discussion about the "black sea yataghan", i posted this photofrom the book "The industrial heritage of costume design in Turkey" by Pr. Onder Kucukerman. On page 60, there is the photo showing "clothing of muslim villagers and townspeople", in Trabzon 1870. This city is in Laz area of the black sea, or "Pontos" as we call it in Greek. It shows the same type of kinjal. Attached Images

4th March 2014, 06:44 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	Lovely kindjal! Based on previous forum discussions and on Kiril Rivkin's and Oliver Pinchot's latest books on Caucasian arms, I believe this is from Western Georgia, Adjara and the region around Trabzon. There have been some claims about a Shapsug origin of the form, but most examples seem to date post the Russian-Circassian war. I am sure Ariel, who knows more about these than me, will have some comments as soon as he sees the thread. I remember seeing pictures of Greek (Laz) guerilla fighters from the early 20th century wearing similar daggers, but cannot find them right now. Regards, Teodor

5th March 2014, 02:59 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Nice qama! It certainly has some Caucasian look, but I think it is Ottoman/Turkish, based on niello decorations. Does chape have checkered Van-style motive?

5th March 2014, 05:51 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Charles, it's hard to see the handle details, but from far it looks like buffalo horn to me. It'd be quite unusual for the handle of such size and shape to be of rhino horn, and it'll make this qama extremely valuable!!!!!

5th March 2014, 06:51 PM	#8
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Alex, thanks for so much great input. I also noticed the "wheel" motif in that post you suggested and it is very prevalent on the qama fittings.

5th March 2014, 07:28 PM	#9
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Based on another forum member's input, the Islamic date converts to 1906 on the Gregorian calendar.

5th March 2014, 08:26 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	The year is 1326 A.H. = 1908 A.D. (depending on calculation system used). The wheel is a "wheel of life" - quite predominant element in Islamic art.

6th March 2014, 06:38 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	South-West Georgia, the Gurian region, border with Turkey, thus the mix of elements. Subsequently, this outline was adopted by the Black Sea Cossack Host. Check the fullers: old ones had the most beautiful "Tiflis" damaskus pattern. I have a suspicion ( and please reassure me that I am wrong!) that the tip was broken and re-formed. Usually, this type has rounded and stubby tip; this one is somehow awkward: straight lines.Check the length of the blade and the scabbard: I have a feeling that it is an inch or two too short for his breeches :-)

6th March 2014, 02:39 PM	#14
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree with Eftihis. This entire area was a hodge-podge of multiple Caucasian, Turkish and Greek styles. Although it gave rise to peculiarly idiosyncratic weapons, which is a topic in its own right. When the Auctions Imperial sale is over, I might bring some examples :-) And as to dating of Islamic objects, I found nothing better than that: http://www.oriold.uzh.ch/static/hegira.html