A sword sceptre ... Malay?

fernando · 6th February 2010, 07:23 PM

Said to be from trhe 19th century, which i beleived.
It has thirteen (precious?) stones all over the scabbard, in various colours.
Scabbard said to be silver, which i have also beleived.
Origin said to be Malay, which i wouldn't know for myself.
It has total 68 cms (27") length, blade measures 45 cms (18").
Coments will be so much welcome, namely whether this type of 'weapon' is a common item, or something not often seen; or would this be a tourist thing or an apparatus for a person with status?
Also i would like to know how you name these things, both in english but specially in the origin language ... certainly transliterated.
Thanks a lot in advance.
Fernando

.

Amuk Murugul · 6th February 2010, 09:14 PM

Hullo everybody,

Fernando, I would call it Tjis in the Soenda language. The name is derived from Arabic. It was traditionally used by a khatib (mosque official) and would be by his side while delivering sermons. Basically, it is a short-sword staff. However, in the last couple of centuries, it has become part of aristocratic regalia.

Best,

ariel · 7th February 2010, 04:30 AM

Can you specify the geographic origin as well as the Arabic equivalent of the local name?
Very, very interesting.
Jewish tradition requires reading the Torah without actually touching it . Thus, the reader holds a short silver staff with sculptured hand at the tip and traces the text with the sculptured finger. This staff is called Ya'd ( hand).
Is there a similar custom in Islam?

Henk · 7th February 2010, 09:09 AM

What a nice find, Fernando.

To me it looks balinese. And i think with my two cents that this is a Sangkuh.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6&page=1&pp=30

In this thread you find a lot about Sangkuh. Written and pictures.

Gustav · 7th February 2010, 11:08 AM

The blade seems to be a keris blade, without gonjo and heavily reshaped at the base, but two sogokan and bungkul are there. You even can see the remains of pejetan on the upper side (in these pictures). Here a diagramm for the terms: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

This pamor is called aiq ngelek (in Sasak language) and seems to be typical for Lombok (according to book "Keris di Lombok" of Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga, page 233).

I don't have experience in modern working with silver (?) in Indonesia (pendok, selut etc.), but my guess would be the last twenty years for the scabbard, looking at this wire work. Not the newest work, but also not so old. But this is really a guess

fernando · 7th February 2010, 06:58 PM

Thank you so much Amuk, for identifying this implement.
After a couple browsings following Amuk's track, i have learnt that the staff must be held by the preacher while he delivers the sermon. This is an Islamic custom practiced all over, that goes back to Mohamed days.
It originates in values like a symbol of authority, an expression of superiority, availabity to punish and strike, power of judgement and so.
It makes an inseparable pair with the pulpit, both simbolizing al-‘ud ani,, or the two pieces of wood.
Apparently, soenda is spoken in Bali and Java; are you sugesting Amuk, that this staff is from such area, due to its characteristics?
So we can see, Ariel, that this thing has a purpose different from the Ya'd.
I too would love to know the basic Arabic name of this implement.
Thank you Gustav, for the diagnosis on the blade; i will register that. Concerning the silver work, probably you know much more than me about it, but i woul go for some more age, not excluding 19th century. I will try and get some appreciation by a local smith, at naked eye.
Thank you for the link on the Sangkuh, Henk. I remember this thread; but i wouldn't think this is such thing, judging by the input already posted here.
Fernando

fernando · 16th February 2010, 06:49 PM

Hi guys,
I was advised by a person well situated in this subject that this item is what they call in Jawa a "stok comando", a command baton popularized by Sukarno, and often used by ex-military people.
The use of an old or damaged keris or tombak blade seems to be the current practice. In this case, one practicaly as described by Gustav.
Indeed Lombok would have been the place of origin for the silver work.
In view of its recent age, in contrast with the 19th century pretended by the seller, i have returned it in exchange for an item of equal price.
Fernando

mohd · 21st February 2010, 03:09 PM

Isn't it a hand spear (i.e. Malaysia = Lembing Tangan; Indonesia = Tombak) which is specifically called as Tumper Inas or Tumper Ingas?

Below is the picture of a Lembing Tangan.

Another picture of a Lembing Tangan.

And another picture of a Lembing Tangan which is currently rehandled by the owner.

Click HERE to see another picture of a Lembing Tangan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by By Bambang Harsrinuksmo in his Ensiklopedi Keris

TUMPER INAS atau Tumper Ingas, salah satu bentuk dapur tombak lurus. Bilahnya simetris, pipih dan tebal. Pada sisi bilah bagian tengah terdapat lekukan landai membentuk semacam pinggang yang ramping. Bilah di bagian atas pinggang lebih lebar di banding di bawah pinggang. Di tepi bilah bagian paling bawah terdapat satu tonjolan yang berbentuk menyudut.

Tombak ini memakai pudak setegal dan kruwingan. Jarang tombak pusaka yang ber-dapur Tumper Inas, kerana tombak ini pada zaman dulu banyak digunakan oleh prajurit rendahan dalam pertempuran. Lihat PUDAK SETEGAL.

I'm not good in translation. Anyhow the best which I can translate for the above quotation are as follows: "Tumper Inas or Tumper Ingas is a type of dapur in a straight shaped spear. It has a symmetrical, slim and thick blade. The lower part of the blade near to the tang has an inward curve at both edges that make it appears like a narrow waist. The blade part near to the tang is wider than the blade part after the waist and it appears like shoulders.

This type of spear has a pudak setegal and a kruwingan. It is very seldom that this type of spear with dapur of Tumper Inas being kept as a Pusaka. It is because this type of spear is normally used by the lowest group of soldiers during that old civilization."

Hope my translation make sense

BTW, ASAIK in South East Asia, the khatib (i.e. the person who give sermon) while reading the khutbah (i.e. sermon) during the Congregation Friday Solat normally hold a tongkat (i.e. stick) and not a spear or a weapon

mohd.

Nathaniel · 24th February 2010, 01:34 AM

ฺำBeautiful piece

6th February 2010, 07:23 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A sword sceptre ... Malay? Said to be from trhe 19th century, which i beleived. It has thirteen (precious?) stones all over the scabbard, in various colours. Scabbard said to be silver, which i have also beleived. Origin said to be Malay, which i wouldn't know for myself. It has total 68 cms (27") length, blade measures 45 cms (18"). Coments will be so much welcome, namely whether this type of 'weapon' is a common item, or something not often seen; or would this be a tourist thing or an apparatus for a person with status? Also i would like to know how you name these things, both in english but specially in the origin language ... certainly transliterated. Thanks a lot in advance. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 6th February 2010 at 07:41 PM.

7th February 2010, 09:09 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Sangkuh What a nice find, Fernando. To me it looks balinese. And i think with my two cents that this is a Sangkuh. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6&page=1&pp=30 In this thread you find a lot about Sangkuh. Written and pictures.

7th February 2010, 11:08 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	The blade seems to be a keris blade, without gonjo and heavily reshaped at the base, but two sogokan and bungkul are there. You even can see the remains of pejetan on the upper side (in these pictures). Here a diagramm for the terms: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html This pamor is called aiq ngelek (in Sasak language) and seems to be typical for Lombok (according to book "Keris di Lombok" of Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga, page 233). I don't have experience in modern working with silver (?) in Indonesia (pendok, selut etc.), but my guess would be the last twenty years for the scabbard, looking at this wire work. Not the newest work, but also not so old. But this is really a guess Last edited by Gustav; 7th February 2010 at 01:40 PM. Reason: bad English

6th February 2010, 09:14 PM	#2
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Hullo everybody, Fernando, I would call it Tjis in the Soenda language. The name is derived from Arabic. It was traditionally used by a khatib (mosque official) and would be by his side while delivering sermons. Basically, it is a short-sword staff. However, in the last couple of centuries, it has become part of aristocratic regalia. Best,

7th February 2010, 04:30 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can you specify the geographic origin as well as the Arabic equivalent of the local name? Very, very interesting. Jewish tradition requires reading the Torah without actually touching it . Thus, the reader holds a short silver staff with sculptured hand at the tip and traces the text with the sculptured finger. This staff is called Ya'd ( hand). Is there a similar custom in Islam?

7th February 2010, 06:58 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much Amuk, for identifying this implement. After a couple browsings following Amuk's track, i have learnt that the staff must be held by the preacher while he delivers the sermon. This is an Islamic custom practiced all over, that goes back to Mohamed days. It originates in values like a symbol of authority, an expression of superiority, availabity to punish and strike, power of judgement and so. It makes an inseparable pair with the pulpit, both simbolizing al-‘ud ani,, or the two pieces of wood. Apparently, soenda is spoken in Bali and Java; are you sugesting Amuk, that this staff is from such area, due to its characteristics? So we can see, Ariel, that this thing has a purpose different from the Ya'd. I too would love to know the basic Arabic name of this implement. Thank you Gustav, for the diagnosis on the blade; i will register that. Concerning the silver work, probably you know much more than me about it, but i woul go for some more age, not excluding 19th century. I will try and get some appreciation by a local smith, at naked eye. Thank you for the link on the Sangkuh, Henk. I remember this thread; but i wouldn't think this is such thing, judging by the input already posted here. Fernando

16th February 2010, 06:49 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi guys, I was advised by a person well situated in this subject that this item is what they call in Jawa a "stok comando", a command baton popularized by Sukarno, and often used by ex-military people. The use of an old or damaged keris or tombak blade seems to be the current practice. In this case, one practicaly as described by Gustav. Indeed Lombok would have been the place of origin for the silver work. In view of its recent age, in contrast with the 19th century pretended by the seller, i have returned it in exchange for an item of equal price. Fernando

24th February 2010, 01:34 AM	#9
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	ฺำBeautiful piece