Ottoman Turkish inscription: Need single word translated

Atlantia · 2nd November 2010, 11:44 PM

I am going a bit batty trying to get this inscription translated.
We know that the inscription is 'Made by ****** 1322'
But that last word is eluding my best efforts to get it translated.

I guess the main thread might not immediately attract Turkish speakers as it doesn't mention the swords origin in the title and Kindjals cover a wide area, so I'm having one last go with this message.
If this doesn't work I'll have to take it into a Turkish business and ask

Henk · 3rd November 2010, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

If this doesn't work I'll have to take it into a Turkish business and ask

You have to because you didn't fullfill the translation rules

Battara · 3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM

Love the beautiful twist core!

Now show the rest of the piece please!

Atlantia · 3rd November 2010, 01:09 AM

I can't believe you guys have missed the 'story so far' LOL!!!!!

This is a Turkish Kindjal dated 1904. It has an interesting twistcore in star pattern, with a nice temper line down the edges.

Seriously though, thank you Gentlemen, I hope you can see why I'm so desperate to get as much information as I can about this sword.

katana · 3rd November 2010, 01:53 AM

Hi Gene,
I haven't commented on this so far.....but it's a beaut....congrats

Regards David

Robert · 3rd November 2010, 02:19 AM

Gene, This is absolutely stunning. Blades like this make me think about widening my collection to include more that just Philippine items. Sorry to say I can't help with the translation, I'm still working on English !!!

Robert

Atlantia · 3rd November 2010, 11:47 PM

David.
Cheers mate, nice to find something good all the way down here in the burbs.

Robert.
Your collection is so damn good! My Kindjal would be lost in its beauty!

Thank you guys

I've really 'put out the feelers' on this one. I've spoken to a chap by email who a fellow kind forumite put me in the direction of. He collects Kindjals, and I believe has a dozen or so pattern welded ones in his collection.
Luckily, he very kindly answered my 'newbie' Kindjal collecting questions.
He agrees with the majority view that this is definately a Turkish example, he says that it is very unusually late for the pattern to be so clear and that they (twistcores I presume) are usually from Tbilisi or Batumi, Turkish and Dagestani tend to be more rare.

So rare amongst the rare!
I've never even seen another genuine twistcore Kindjal in person, of any style or type, so to me it's truly uber-rare!
So you can see why I'm pee'd-off that I can't read the makers name

Someone must be able to read it?

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 7th November 2010, 01:16 PM

A kind forumite suggested that it looked like 'H'
As in 'Amel H' ?

Zifir · 8th November 2010, 02:43 PM

That forumite is also shilly-shallying about his reading of the script

If I am allowed to correct my mistake, it is B and H (I think). I can't find suitable vocalization for this word though. Assuming this is a specific Caucasian name, rather than a Turkish one, all we need is to find someone who is familiar with languages and names of that area.

Atlantia · 8th November 2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zifir

That forumite is also shilly-shallying about his reading of the script

If I am allowed to correct my mistake, it is B and H (I think). I can't find suitable vocalization for this word though. Assuming this is a specific Caucasian name, rather than a Turkish one, all we need is to find someone who is familiar with languages and names of that area.

LOL!!! Shilly-shallying is a great phrase!

Thank you for your continued support in trying to decipher this word Zifir.

I have now emailed a seller of Kindjals in Georgia, and an expert in Turkish/Ottoman scripts/caligraphy in Istanbul.

It's entirely possible of course, that I won't get replies (as I don't actually know either person so I'm kind of hoping they will have the time to indulge a strangers request).
But if at least one does reply, then hopefully that will either translate the missing word or exclude that line of enquiry.

This sword has really grown on me, I really do hope I can learn as much about it as possible.
It has (as acquiring a treasured weapon always does) led me to think about its history, owner and how it probobly ended up being brought back to England. Terrible possibilities, Gallipoli, that dreadful campaign and so many wasted lives. The bravery of the Turkish troops and the losses on both sides.
For what?
Not so long ago, only just beyond living memory.
I find myself hoping it wasn't taken from a fallen soldier. But so many 'foreign' antique weapons in England are here because they were.

Best
Gene

TVV · 9th November 2010, 02:28 AM

Accounts of the Gallipoli campaign do not suggest the Entente soldiers had plenty of time to go about souvenir collecting, as they barely held a foothold, before being driven out with terrible losses.

I would think a more likely story would be a British traveller in the area, perhaps even prior to the Great War. If we assume, of course that the kindjal made the journey North-West a century or so ago, and not as a collectible in more modern times.

Regards,
Teodor

Atlantia · 9th November 2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Accounts of the Gallipoli campaign do not suggest the Entente soldiers had plenty of time to go about souvenir collecting, as they barely held a foothold, before being driven out with terrible losses.

I would think a more likely story would be a British traveller in the area, perhaps even prior to the Great War. If we assume, of course that the kindjal made the journey North-West a century or so ago, and not as a collectible in more modern times.

Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor,

It comes to something when the only part of a campaign that size that went well was the retreat!
I would much rather it was a gift or peacetime bringback.

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 9th November 2010, 10:48 PM

Well I'm going for all the long shots now, so just in case someone who is reading this but isn't registered can help with the translation, I can be reached by email at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com
Thanks
Gene

Battara · 10th November 2010, 12:53 AM

Atlantia, I will tell you that probably all but 1 piece in my Philippine collection was brought back from US soldiers during the Philippine-American War and Moro Wars, where hundreds of thousands of Filipinos and Moros died, making many of the pieces I have or had being off the bodies of dead Filipinos.

I still collect for the artwork and history involved. This includes remembering the honored dead on all sides.

Atlantia · 10th November 2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Atlantia, I will tell you that probably all but 1 piece in my Philippine collection was brought back from US soldiers during the Philippine-American War and Moro Wars, where hundreds of thousands of Filipinos and Moros died, making many of the pieces I have or had being off the bodies of dead Filipinos.

I still collect for the artwork and history involved. This includes remembering the honored dead on all sides.

It's often the way here too, many foreign weapons are trophies brought back from conflicts past.
I think It's important to remember the context in which these may have or definately did come to us.
These things we collect besides everything else, are often 'moments' in history.

On a lighter note, I've just sent pictures of a the sword to a collector/seller in Georgia, so if there is a slim chance that (as has been suggested) the name is of Georgian origin, then hopefull this will tell me.

Atlantia · 19th November 2010, 08:52 PM

Georgian collector says not Georgian. He says its Arabic.
So the plot thickens!
So, to recap. We've had suggestions that it might be Turkish, Georgian, or Arabic. But every time I show it to someone who reads one of those languages, they say they think the missing word is one of the other options.
So frustrating, I'm pretty confused at this point

P.S. I wonder if it could be a abbreviated name? Do arabic characters lend themselves to being written in the form of a monogram?

Atlantia · 27th November 2010, 10:19 PM

BUMP, Anyone?
Still no answers on this one

Atlantia · 5th December 2010, 01:21 PM

A kind chap who has been trying to help with this has had the following idea. Perhaps it can help lead us to an answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahil A.

The only word that come to my mind for the missing word is بحر which means ocean, sea!

I know its a stretch, but could our maker have been a second generation foreign bladesmith with a name that hinted at his foreign heritage?
As in 'from across the sea' or similar?

Regards
Gene

Atlantia · 5th January 2011, 10:16 PM

Well there have been some developments on this, so I thought I'd add them here just in case anyone apart from me is interested

Firstly, in addition to those here who have helped, I need to thank: A. Alnakas, Rahil A., Sancar Ozer and Manouchehr M. Khorasani for their kind help in working on this.

The options now seem to be that it says either 'Shamil Mohammed' or 'Amal-e Mohammed'.

Also, it has been 'featured' on the website of Mr Khorasani.

(just scroll down below the beautiful Tulwar)

LINKY

This sword is a favourite of mine and I think that I now have as much information about it as I'm likely to get.
So essentially I am content now. There is nothing more frustrating than knowing you should be able to solve the clues about a favourite weapon and not being able to do so. I think its important to try and tell their story if you can.
These weapons are the footnotes on the pages of history, albeit inked in blood.

Atlantia · 22nd May 2012, 10:47 PM

Just noticed Manouchehr has revamped his excellent site so my link doesn't work. Here is the new link to my Kindjal

Dom · 23rd May 2012, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Well there have been some developments on this, so I thought I'd add them here just in case anyone apart from me is interested

Firstly, in addition to those here who have helped, I need to thank: A. Alnakas, Rahil A., Sancar Ozer and Manouchehr M. Khorasani for their kind help in working on this.

The options now seem to be that it says either 'Shamil Mohammed' or 'Amal-e Mohammed'.

Hi Atlantia
nothing more than a confirmation for what the other formites, have already said

AMAL MOHAMED either MADE BY MOHAMED

only comment from my translator; very unusual to find a date without the mention "SANA" (year) ...

à +

Dom

Atlantia · 24th May 2012, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Atlantia
nothing more than a confirmation for what the other formites, have already said

AMAL MOHAMED either MADE BY MOHAMED

only comment from my translator; very unusual to find a date without the mention "SANA" (year) ...

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

Thanks and please extend my gratitude to your 'translator'

You'll have seen that Manouchehr (on his site) also thought it was probobly Mohamed, so I guess thats confirmed now

Excellent to have final confirmation, I'm very fond of this sword.

Best
Gene

mohd · 24th May 2012, 12:45 PM

Hi Atlantia,

This is what I see from the inscriptions.
Anyhow you have to rotate the picture just like the one done by Dom.

عــبــد الــرب ٢/٢/٢٢ = Abdul Rabb 2/2/22 = Abdul Rabb 2nd day of the 2nd month of the year 22

Abdul Rabb which means Servant of The God might be the name of the maker or the name of the owner of the Kinjal.
The 2nd day of the 2nd month of the year 22 might means 2nd of Safar in Hijriyah year of 1322 which is equivalence to Monday 18th of April 1904.
It seems to me that the inscriptions was actually done after the Kinjal finished. That's the reason why the inscriptions was rather badly engraved/scratched.

Just my two cents and I might be wrong

mohd

2nd November 2010, 11:44 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Ottoman Turkish inscription: Need single word translated I am going a bit batty trying to get this inscription translated. We know that the inscription is 'Made by ****** 1322' But that last word is eluding my best efforts to get it translated. I guess the main thread might not immediately attract Turkish speakers as it doesn't mention the swords origin in the title and Kindjals cover a wide area, so I'm having one last go with this message. If this doesn't work I'll have to take it into a Turkish business and ask Attached Images

3rd November 2010, 01:09 AM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I can't believe you guys have missed the 'story so far' LOL!!!!! This is a Turkish Kindjal dated 1904. It has an interesting twistcore in star pattern, with a nice temper line down the edges. Seriously though, thank you Gentlemen, I hope you can see why I'm so desperate to get as much information as I can about this sword. Attached Images

19th November 2010, 08:52 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Georgian collector says not Georgian. He says its Arabic. So the plot thickens! So, to recap. We've had suggestions that it might be Turkish, Georgian, or Arabic. But every time I show it to someone who reads one of those languages, they say they think the missing word is one of the other options. So frustrating, I'm pretty confused at this point P.S. I wonder if it could be a abbreviated name? Do arabic characters lend themselves to being written in the form of a monogram? Last edited by Atlantia; 20th November 2010 at 11:18 AM.

5th January 2011, 10:16 PM	#19
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well there have been some developments on this, so I thought I'd add them here just in case anyone apart from me is interested Firstly, in addition to those here who have helped, I need to thank: A. Alnakas, Rahil A., Sancar Ozer and Manouchehr M. Khorasani for their kind help in working on this. The options now seem to be that it says either 'Shamil Mohammed' or 'Amal-e Mohammed'. Also, it has been 'featured' on the website of Mr Khorasani. (just scroll down below the beautiful Tulwar) LINKY This sword is a favourite of mine and I think that I now have as much information about it as I'm likely to get. So essentially I am content now. There is nothing more frustrating than knowing you should be able to solve the clues about a favourite weapon and not being able to do so. I think its important to try and tell their story if you can. These weapons are the footnotes on the pages of history, albeit inked in blood. Last edited by Atlantia; 5th January 2011 at 10:30 PM.

3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Love the beautiful twist core! Now show the rest of the piece please!

3rd November 2010, 01:53 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Gene, I haven't commented on this so far.....but it's a beaut....congrats Regards David

3rd November 2010, 02:19 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Gene, This is absolutely stunning. Blades like this make me think about widening my collection to include more that just Philippine items. Sorry to say I can't help with the translation, I'm still working on English !!! Robert

3rd November 2010, 11:47 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	David. Cheers mate, nice to find something good all the way down here in the burbs. Robert. Your collection is so damn good! My Kindjal would be lost in its beauty! Thank you guys I've really 'put out the feelers' on this one. I've spoken to a chap by email who a fellow kind forumite put me in the direction of. He collects Kindjals, and I believe has a dozen or so pattern welded ones in his collection. Luckily, he very kindly answered my 'newbie' Kindjal collecting questions. He agrees with the majority view that this is definately a Turkish example, he says that it is very unusually late for the pattern to be so clear and that they (twistcores I presume) are usually from Tbilisi or Batumi, Turkish and Dagestani tend to be more rare. So rare amongst the rare! I've never even seen another genuine twistcore Kindjal in person, of any style or type, so to me it's truly uber-rare! So you can see why I'm pee'd-off that I can't read the makers name Someone must be able to read it? Best Gene

7th November 2010, 01:16 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	A kind forumite suggested that it looked like 'H' As in 'Amel H' ?

8th November 2010, 02:43 PM	#9
Zifir Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Istanbul Posts: 228	That forumite is also shilly-shallying about his reading of the script If I am allowed to correct my mistake, it is B and H (I think). I can't find suitable vocalization for this word though. Assuming this is a specific Caucasian name, rather than a Turkish one, all we need is to find someone who is familiar with languages and names of that area.

9th November 2010, 02:28 AM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Accounts of the Gallipoli campaign do not suggest the Entente soldiers had plenty of time to go about souvenir collecting, as they barely held a foothold, before being driven out with terrible losses. I would think a more likely story would be a British traveller in the area, perhaps even prior to the Great War. If we assume, of course that the kindjal made the journey North-West a century or so ago, and not as a collectible in more modern times. Regards, Teodor

9th November 2010, 10:48 PM	#13
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Well I'm going for all the long shots now, so just in case someone who is reading this but isn't registered can help with the translation, I can be reached by email at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com Thanks Gene

10th November 2010, 12:53 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Atlantia, I will tell you that probably all but 1 piece in my Philippine collection was brought back from US soldiers during the Philippine-American War and Moro Wars, where hundreds of thousands of Filipinos and Moros died, making many of the pieces I have or had being off the bodies of dead Filipinos. I still collect for the artwork and history involved. This includes remembering the honored dead on all sides.

27th November 2010, 10:19 PM	#17
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	BUMP, Anyone? Still no answers on this one

22nd May 2012, 10:47 PM	#20
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Just noticed Manouchehr has revamped his excellent site so my link doesn't work. Here is the new link to my Kindjal

24th May 2012, 12:45 PM	#23
mohd Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 41	Hi Atlantia, This is what I see from the inscriptions. Anyhow you have to rotate the picture just like the one done by Dom. عــبــد الــرب ٢/٢/٢٢ = Abdul Rabb 2/2/22 = Abdul Rabb 2nd day of the 2nd month of the year 22 Abdul Rabb which means Servant of The God might be the name of the maker or the name of the owner of the Kinjal. The 2nd day of the 2nd month of the year 22 might means 2nd of Safar in Hijriyah year of 1322 which is equivalence to Monday 18th of April 1904. It seems to me that the inscriptions was actually done after the Kinjal finished. That's the reason why the inscriptions was rather badly engraved/scratched. Just my two cents and I might be wrong mohd