Another noise maker

fernando · 27th May 2017, 07:41 PM

Certainly not a hand cannon. It stands upright, with a base slightly wider than its top; and a 'caliber' too large for a gonne. Let's call it mortar; some call it böller.
I bought this one more due to its attitude (read shape). I never realized the walls of these things are so much thicker down by the 'chamber' ... as cannons often are.
Very heavy; 5,3 Kgs.
It would be Portuguese ... in principle. Its age, i don't know; these devices are hard to date. From the XVI to the XVIII century all is possible. Anyone able to narrow this date range ?

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Philip · 1st June 2017, 08:20 AM

Trying to narrow down the chronology is indeed tough on something like this. This is a type of böller, I would think, because its shape calls for it standing upright. Even if the barrel was provided with a socket, or shaped to fit a stock, its conical bore would make it impractical as a projectile weapon. The problem with such a bore is that a ball of any given size would only go down to a certain point, and deciding what point is optimum in relation to the volume of powder is critical from a safety standpoint because if there is any air space in between, excessive pressure can be generated by the explosion, turning the barrel into a little bomb.

As a noisemaker or signal device, the design of such a device can stay unchanged for a very long time. There are three- (or more) barrel versions of these, forged of iron, found in different Far Eastern countries and the ones from 17th cent. Korea can hardly be distinguished from those from 19th cent. Indochina. So the generous range of dates that you suggest is perhaps the most realistic assessment.

fernando · 1st June 2017, 01:16 PM

Obrigado Filipe

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Actually i have gathered a number of these things, as also of actual hand cannons. I had promised myself ceasing further accumulation but, as i said, i found this one rather appealing.

Philip · 1st June 2017, 11:40 PM

Wonderful, you must have quite a variety of different styles and sizes. Hopefully you've tried to obtain from the sellers some info as to where they were found, and in what context (ruins, riverbed, possible battle site, etc). That might help answer questions about dates, especially for the hand cannons which must have disappeared from the scene when muskets became available although that process must have been gradual as well. Has anything been published in Portugal about these things? Any academics doing research to your knowledge? Maybe you can work with one of these guys so that we eventually have a published article, at least, about them.

I'm sure that this is not just a crazy idea of mine. Wasn't our late forum colleague, "Matchlock" up in Germany, quite serious about very early firearms as well?

fernando · 2nd June 2017, 05:46 PM

In fact i was adviced by Matchlock in the acquisition of some cannons, both hand an portable. It was also through his knowledge that i could date some of my earliest examples as from the XIV and XV centuries.
But if it is difficult to age these things, is not easier to know their original provenance; most of them were bought in an impersonal manner, from sellers who wouldn't provide their previous track. The best guess is to trust that their origin is that of the country from where we buy them; some from Spain, some from Germany, one from South America and others said to be simply 'European'. The only one i can be pretty sure of is origin was a böller that came from a local church.
I don't think there is any local literature on these devices, either böllers and gonnes. Rainer Daehnhardt has a few interesting ones in his collection, but wrote not treatise abouth this subject that i know of. He has a theory that the earliest Portuguese hand gonnes were used in the battle of Aljubarrota, but i don't think this is more than a theory. But one thing i learnt in our conversations is that upright examples may not only be signal or noise makers but were also used for bellicose purposes, like traps and so. Would have i doubted this assumption they were soon vanished when i found in the web a French device that was destined to perform such job.

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Philip · 2nd June 2017, 07:04 PM

Yes, obtaining provenance info is not possible in many cases when you are buying something casually at an antiques fair, flea market, or shop because the seller may not know. And sometimes when there is a "war story" attached, there is no documentation to back up what may be just hearsay or an assumption. But you can still learn a lot from collecting these things, for instance if you notice elements that are analogous to pieces in collections that do have more or less reliable documentation. Every bit of info counts, even if it only builds a tentative conclusion that's going to be replaced by something more solid later. Are their other collectors in Portugal who specialize in these, with whom you are sharing info and insight?

That multi-barrel "trap" gun is intriguing, and rare to have survived in such condition. Too bad there aren't more images like a side view showing the length and profile of the barrels! And to show us how they were ignited. To me, a trap device is something that is triggered by the thing you want to catch/shoot, so it must stand ready to go off after who-knows-how-long a waiting time. With gonnes, the requirement for a lit matchcord makes this impractical. However, I can see this thing as being of use as a "volley gun" fired by a defender standing behind the gate as the enemy approaches.

fernando · 3rd June 2017, 01:29 PM

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