Chinese/Tibetan(?) Trousse

FenrisWolf · 15th March 2007, 09:09 AM

Not a weapon per se, barring a dispute over who gets the choice cuts at the table, but a better than average example of the breed:

OAL in scabbard is 13", hilt is horn, 4 7/8", OAL knife 12 1/2", shagren and German silver on scabbard, elephant ivory chopsticks, forged blade, may be pattern welded Damascus. I've seen a lot of these over the years, but this was one of the best insofar as overall workmanship and the quality of the blade. Was attributed as Japanese, but I think it more likely to be Chinese. At least I've never seen any source depicting the use of similar sets in Japan. If anyone is familiar with these or has the references to pin down its origins more exactly I'd appreciate it.

FenrisWolf · 16th March 2007, 12:33 PM

Haven't had a chance to re-photograph it yet, but there's definitely something interesting about the blade. Is there any history of anything like wootz steel coming out of China? This doesn't have the long lines of pattern weld or the tight swirls of Indian wootz; it's almost speckled, with the shinier, harder steel forming the spots if that makes sense. Sound familiar to anyone? I'll try and get a decent pic up tomorrow....

Andrew · 16th March 2007, 02:44 PM

Like you, Fenris, I've never seen a trousse of this form from Japan. China is the likely source.

When you take photos, could you get a close-up of the shagreen? Does it look genuine to you, or could it be paper inked and laquered to look like it?

David · 16th March 2007, 02:53 PM

I can't help you with your question, but here is another fine example of the form.

Berkley · 16th March 2007, 03:58 PM

Chinese chopsticks have squared-off ends like those shown. Japanese chopsticks are rounded and tapered to a point.

FenrisWolf · 17th March 2007, 12:24 AM

Pretty sure the shagren is the real deal; it has the depth and faint transluscence that it's supposed to:

As for the blade, again not the best pics, but you can see some of the pattern:

Andrew · 17th March 2007, 04:57 AM

I agree: looks like the real stuff to me.

FenrisWolf · 21st March 2007, 07:26 PM

Still no comments/explanations/suggestions as to the composition of the blade. Any information or even wild speculation would be apppreciated.

Nick Wardigo · 22nd March 2007, 01:02 AM

Looks to me like the "speckled pattern" might just be surface marring. Here and there, I can see some vaguely parallel lines that might be a layered pattern weld (look at the uppermost photo). In fact, also in this photo, it looks like it may have a hardened edge. My advice is to polish and etch a window in this thing and see what turns up. Some of the nicer trousses do have layered blades with inserted or hardened (or both) edges.

To answer your question regarding wootz...there is no history of wootz in China. Phil and I have occassionally speculated that cakes of wootz could have feasibly been obtained through trade with India and the Muslim world, but no Chinese swords have ever turned up with wootz blades. There are certainly no examples in the Forbidden City, and if any did exist, I would expect at least one to turn up in the possession of the Emperor.

The rayskin on the scabbard looks 100% right as rain.

15th March 2007, 09:09 AM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Chinese/Tibetan(?) Trousse Not a weapon per se, barring a dispute over who gets the choice cuts at the table, but a better than average example of the breed: OAL in scabbard is 13", hilt is horn, 4 7/8", OAL knife 12 1/2", shagren and German silver on scabbard, elephant ivory chopsticks, forged blade, may be pattern welded Damascus. I've seen a lot of these over the years, but this was one of the best insofar as overall workmanship and the quality of the blade. Was attributed as Japanese, but I think it more likely to be Chinese. At least I've never seen any source depicting the use of similar sets in Japan. If anyone is familiar with these or has the references to pin down its origins more exactly I'd appreciate it.

16th March 2007, 02:53 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I can't help you with your question, but here is another fine example of the form. Attached Images

16th March 2007, 12:33 PM	#2
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Haven't had a chance to re-photograph it yet, but there's definitely something interesting about the blade. Is there any history of anything like wootz steel coming out of China? This doesn't have the long lines of pattern weld or the tight swirls of Indian wootz; it's almost speckled, with the shinier, harder steel forming the spots if that makes sense. Sound familiar to anyone? I'll try and get a decent pic up tomorrow....

16th March 2007, 02:44 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Like you, Fenris, I've never seen a trousse of this form from Japan. China is the likely source. When you take photos, could you get a close-up of the shagreen? Does it look genuine to you, or could it be paper inked and laquered to look like it?

16th March 2007, 03:58 PM	#5
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Chinese chopsticks have squared-off ends like those shown. Japanese chopsticks are rounded and tapered to a point.

17th March 2007, 12:24 AM	#6
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Pretty sure the shagren is the real deal; it has the depth and faint transluscence that it's supposed to: As for the blade, again not the best pics, but you can see some of the pattern:

17th March 2007, 04:57 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I agree: looks like the real stuff to me.

21st March 2007, 07:26 PM	#8
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Still no comments/explanations/suggestions as to the composition of the blade. Any information or even wild speculation would be apppreciated.

22nd March 2007, 01:02 AM	#9
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Looks to me like the "speckled pattern" might just be surface marring. Here and there, I can see some vaguely parallel lines that might be a layered pattern weld (look at the uppermost photo). In fact, also in this photo, it looks like it may have a hardened edge. My advice is to polish and etch a window in this thing and see what turns up. Some of the nicer trousses do have layered blades with inserted or hardened (or both) edges. To answer your question regarding wootz...there is no history of wootz in China. Phil and I have occassionally speculated that cakes of wootz could have feasibly been obtained through trade with India and the Muslim world, but no Chinese swords have ever turned up with wootz blades. There are certainly no examples in the Forbidden City, and if any did exist, I would expect at least one to turn up in the possession of the Emperor. The rayskin on the scabbard looks 100% right as rain.