Turkish Pala. Help with inscriptions.

arsendaday · 5th January 2016, 08:36 AM

Here is one of my recent buys.
Total length is 36" (straight line), the blade is 29" (straight line), the hilt 6.5" and the guard seems to be made of steel or iron. I think the guard and the hilt could be a recent restoration. There is also an inscription on the ridge of the blade. Please advice on the blade authenticity (makers mark? year?) and I would really appreciate any help with inscriptions.

eftihis · 5th January 2016, 07:07 PM

My friend, i am sorry to say this is a 100% newly made sword.

ALEX · 5th January 2016, 07:53 PM

Agree with Eftihis, this is newly made sword, including the blade.

Battara · 5th January 2016, 10:50 PM

I was wondering that myself.

harrywagner · 5th January 2016, 11:10 PM

Guys, please elaborate. This would have fooled me, and I would have bought it if given the chance. How did you determine it is newly made? TIA

Harry

ariel · 5th January 2016, 11:49 PM

These swords appear on e-bay regularly: from Beirut and from Turkey. They used to be advertised from Damascus, but I guess Syrian mail service had some problems recently.

Every part is "off": handle, blade, crossguard.

I am not going to elaborate: let the fakers guess what exactly is wrong with their junk.

arsendaday · 6th January 2016, 03:21 AM

Thanks everybody for your input. I guess I will just return it.

Just FYI this is a really good job for a fake sword. And the inlay is done pretty neat compared to Indian swords. If one can get these really cheap it would be OK to buy it.

Kubur · 6th January 2016, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harrywagner

Guys, please elaborate. This would have fooled me, and I would have bought it if given the chance. How did you determine it is newly made? TIA
Harry

Hi Harry,

Yes sometimes members judgments are very frustrating.
Sometimes they are also completly wrong. Beware of that!
I'm afraid to say that they are so right for this one.
The best answer to your question is to look at the real ones.
Look at the details of the blade, guard, grips...
For me the worst is not the pure fakes, the worst is when sellers mix old and new. We have a lot of dealers on this forum, I'm sure they know what i'mean...

Kubur

BANDOOK · 6th January 2016, 10:17 AM

I MUST ADMIT THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO REPLIED AND ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION HAVE REPLIED IN A VERY NICE AND KIND WAY AND MADE YOU CAUTIOUS,AS THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO RIDICULE AND MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE ONE IS A FOOL,WE ALL ARE LEARNING AND NO ONE IS AN EXPERT AND AN EXPERT ALSO CAN BE FOOLED
GOOD LUCK AND THANKS FOR POSTING
REGARDS RAJESH

ALEX · 6th January 2016, 01:43 PM

just a few tidbits about these swords, they appeared in about 2010, made in Syria and/or Turkey. The blade looks gold inlaid, as initially thought, but it is neither gold nor inlay, it is surface template-based application, far from anything it appeared to be. You may see an old thread with similar swords from when they began making them HERE

arsendaday · 7th January 2016, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

just a few tidbits about these swords, they appeared in about 2010, made in Syria and/or Turkey. The blade looks gold inlaid, as initially thought, but it is neither gold nor inlay, it is surface template-based application, far from anything it appeared to be. You may see an old thread with similar swords from when they began making them HERE

Thanks Alex! I wish I came along this post earlier, It would save me some time and disappointment. Either way I see that on your example the handle is a little better, which makes me feel even worse

Well, better late than never, as they say. I hope that at least our efforts here will warn some people about the fakes. Also I think that this guys would make more profit if they openly stated that the swords are replicas, priced them right and offer them to everybody, instead of being shady. But I guess some people are more greedy than smart.

ALEX · 7th January 2016, 01:30 PM

Arsen, you are most welcome! I am glad you posted this sword and got the facts about it. This is part of collecting, and I think safe to say every one of us made some miscalculations at some point, especially when going by only online images.
here are a few more swords of similar nature, not even most from just the past several weeks alone. one even has the reference of authentic sword from Tirri book attached, as to stress the importance of everything that remotely resembles it, and the description states "likely 1700s to 1800s period, of course

Kubur · 7th January 2016, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Arsen, you are most welcome! I am glad you posted this sword and got the facts about it. This is part of collecting, and I think safe to say every one of us made some miscalculations at some point, especially when going by only online images.
here are a few more swords of similar nature, not even most from just the past several weeks alone. one even has the reference of authentic sword from Tirri book attached, as to stress the importance of everything that remotely resembles it, and the description states "likely 1700s to 1800s period, of course

Hi Alex,

The second and fourth ones look good to me...
The last one is just a good old Turkish touristic sword...

Best,
Kubur

ALEX · 7th January 2016, 02:13 PM

see the second and third, they have identical cartouches

the blades are completely new, as the handles and crosses... everything is new. they are acid aged just as the subject kilij. As per Ariel's earlier comment, I'll not give up more hints to those who make them.
The last one also shows some age, but is it any old? see the below image that Harry recently posted for sale (Harry, hope you do not mind I am referencing your item here). They are similar, but one is aged, no? i mean it can be a few years old, could be 5 or 10, but 1800...?

Kubur · 7th January 2016, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

look at second and third, they have identical cartouches, same newly-made template

the handles are completely new, so are the blades. they are acid aged just as the subject kilij. The last one also shows some age, but i doubt it is any old. see the below image that Harry recently posted for sale, same thing but aged, no? i mean it can be a few years old, could be 5 or 10, but 1800...?

sorry the picture changed
i talked about the first one
for the last one, yes, like Harry's Turkish daggers, i would say around 1900-1920.
Touristic, but old... Nevertheless they continue to do these kind of daggers up to now if i'm not mistaken...
By the way a lot of pistols fall in this category too...

ALEX · 7th January 2016, 02:32 PM

Kubur, I see. The first one is tough as the cartouche is of different quality than others, visually it looks right, but there are giveaways I'd not go about here. All I can tell is I saw old wootz swords being sold without cartouches, and then some time later mysteriously reappeared with similar, even better quality cartouches. but this one is easier as it has new blade)
As for wooden sword, you could be right. it's just me being skeptical about it)

estcrh · 8th January 2016, 07:01 AM

While we are on the subject....very recently I have seen a rash of swords/daggers etc that just look funny, either they have no wear but appear to be nicely made, or they have a lot of gold that looks really new while the sword/dagger looks old but not of the quality to be layered in gold etc etc. Some of the sales prices have been quite high.

How about this, bone grip, lots of new looking gold, the sellers description never mentions age.

Quote:

Super Rare Beautiful Gold Inlaid islamic Indo Persian Shamshir Dagger, you are looking at a Super Rare Beautiful Gold inlaid Indo Persian islamic Shamshir dagger, Wootz blade engraved with gold koftgari islamic calligraphy, handle bone with with gold inlay, Overall length 13"

ALEX · 8th January 2016, 10:55 AM

Estcrh, good observation and comments. Your feelings are well merited. most of the items coming from the same source as this one are enhanced, modified or at least questionable. The seller does not mention age. the notion of "most amazing and rare dagger on earth" is subjective and individual, some like items that just "look" amazing, as the swords above, but in terms of ethnographic or historic significance they are meaningless.

5th January 2016, 08:36 AM	#1
arsendaday Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 44	Turkish Pala. Help with inscriptions. Here is one of my recent buys. Total length is 36" (straight line), the blade is 29" (straight line), the hilt 6.5" and the guard seems to be made of steel or iron. I think the guard and the hilt could be a recent restoration. There is also an inscription on the ridge of the blade. Please advice on the blade authenticity (makers mark? year?) and I would really appreciate any help with inscriptions. Attached Images

5th January 2016, 11:10 PM	#5
harrywagner Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 373	Yes, but why? Guys, please elaborate. This would have fooled me, and I would have bought it if given the chance. How did you determine it is newly made? TIA Harry

6th January 2016, 03:21 AM	#7
arsendaday Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 44	Thanks Thanks everybody for your input. I guess I will just return it. Just FYI this is a really good job for a fake sword. And the inlay is done pretty neat compared to Indian swords. If one can get these really cheap it would be OK to buy it.

7th January 2016, 01:30 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Arsen, you are most welcome! I am glad you posted this sword and got the facts about it. This is part of collecting, and I think safe to say every one of us made some miscalculations at some point, especially when going by only online images. here are a few more swords of similar nature, not even most from just the past several weeks alone. one even has the reference of authentic sword from Tirri book attached, as to stress the importance of everything that remotely resembles it, and the description states "likely 1700s to 1800s period, of course Attached Images

7th January 2016, 02:13 PM	#14
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	see the second and third, they have identical cartouches the blades are completely new, as the handles and crosses... everything is new. they are acid aged just as the subject kilij. As per Ariel's earlier comment, I'll not give up more hints to those who make them. The last one also shows some age, but is it any old? see the below image that Harry recently posted for sale (Harry, hope you do not mind I am referencing your item here). They are similar, but one is aged, no? i mean it can be a few years old, could be 5 or 10, but 1800...? Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 7th January 2016 at 02:23 PM.

5th January 2016, 07:07 PM	#2
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	My friend, i am sorry to say this is a 100% newly made sword.

5th January 2016, 07:53 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Agree with Eftihis, this is newly made sword, including the blade.

5th January 2016, 10:50 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I was wondering that myself.

5th January 2016, 11:49 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	These swords appear on e-bay regularly: from Beirut and from Turkey. They used to be advertised from Damascus, but I guess Syrian mail service had some problems recently. Every part is "off": handle, blade, crossguard. I am not going to elaborate: let the fakers guess what exactly is wrong with their junk.

6th January 2016, 10:17 AM	#9
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	I MUST ADMIT THAT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO REPLIED AND ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION HAVE REPLIED IN A VERY NICE AND KIND WAY AND MADE YOU CAUTIOUS,AS THERE ARE SOME ON THIS FORUM WHO RIDICULE AND MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE ONE IS A FOOL,WE ALL ARE LEARNING AND NO ONE IS AN EXPERT AND AN EXPERT ALSO CAN BE FOOLED GOOD LUCK AND THANKS FOR POSTING REGARDS RAJESH

6th January 2016, 01:43 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	just a few tidbits about these swords, they appeared in about 2010, made in Syria and/or Turkey. The blade looks gold inlaid, as initially thought, but it is neither gold nor inlay, it is surface template-based application, far from anything it appeared to be. You may see an old thread with similar swords from when they began making them HERE

7th January 2016, 02:32 PM	#16
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur, I see. The first one is tough as the cartouche is of different quality than others, visually it looks right, but there are giveaways I'd not go about here. All I can tell is I saw old wootz swords being sold without cartouches, and then some time later mysteriously reappeared with similar, even better quality cartouches. but this one is easier as it has new blade) As for wooden sword, you could be right. it's just me being skeptical about it)

8th January 2016, 10:55 AM	#18
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Estcrh, good observation and comments. Your feelings are well merited. most of the items coming from the same source as this one are enhanced, modified or at least questionable. The seller does not mention age. the notion of "most amazing and rare dagger on earth" is subjective and individual, some like items that just "look" amazing, as the swords above, but in terms of ethnographic or historic significance they are meaningless.