Battle damage

[Timo Nieminen]

Lots of old weapons have damage to the edge - chips, nicks, rolls, etc. Sometimes these are from use or misuse of the weapon as a tool, from children (including adult children) playing with it, and so on. But sometimes I see something that looks like real battle damage.

Here is one example: a kukri with a deep nick between kaudi/cho and hilt. If I put a piece of paper into the nick down to the bottom, it rests against my fingers when I hold the kukri. (Just for completeness, also a photo of the inscription on the spine; it's an armoury kukri, weight of 690g. It's also pretty dirty; I haven't cleaned it yet.)

[Timo Nieminen]

Another example: a Japanese military tsuba. Either shrapnel/shell fragment or it's been run over by a heavy vehicle. If shrapnel, it went through either the hilt or blade before hitting the tsuba.

Brass tsuba, 78mm by 67mm, 170g.

[VANDOO]

THIS SORT OF DAMMAGE IS PART OF THE WEAPONS HISTORY AND ADDS A DIMENSION OF ACTUAL USE FOR CONSIDERATION. IT MAKES US WONDER WHO WON AND WHO LOST OR IF THEY SURVIVED. THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANYONE TO FAKE THESE TYPES OF DAMMAGE AS IT REDUCES THE VALUE RATHER THAN INCREASES IT.
I LIKE IT IN MOST CASES IF IT HAS NOT DESTROYED THE ITEM. ON THE OTHER HAND SEEING AN ITEM THAT IS DAMMAGED USING A GRINDER OR TRYING TO HACK A GUN BARREL IN HALF IS PART OF ITS HISTORY BUT ONLY MAKES ME SAD.

[spiral]

That's some serious hit Timo!

I have no idea how damage on any individual piece was caused, but here's something I put on IKRHS after a similar discussion. {Relevant Photo was added by administrator.}

spiral

[Ian]

This thread reminds me of one on the old UBB forum concerning edged weapons struck by bullets. There was a very interesting discussion of Moro weapons struck in this way: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000872.html

[Sancar]

I know almost nothing about Nepalese history, though this quote reminded me of a Japanese historian acquaintance of mine, who once told me that "other than some duel or two, and some minor local skirmishes, Tokugawa shogunate samurai katanas are used mostly to cut down armless poor peasents for even tiniest hints of perceived insolance."

Originally Posted by spiral

That's some serious hit Timo!

I have no idea how damage on any individual piece was caused, but here's something I put on IKRHS after a similar discussion. {Relevant Photo was added by administrator.}

spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Sancar

I know almost nothing about Nepalese history, though this quote reminded me of a Japanese historian acquaintance of mine, who once told me that "other than some duel or two, and some minor local skirmishes, Tokugawa shogunate samurai katanas are used mostly to cut down armless poor peasents for even tiniest hints of perceived insolance."

I believe that's correct, its not realy my subject , but I have the impression the koto era swords were the battle pieces, after 1600 it was as you say & the swords developed a more showy blade construction often more for looks rather than the koto looks of the hada & hamon mostly being more a side effect of the construction for strength using the limited materials available that came about.

Of course some ww2 era Gunto pieces like the koa isshin etc. went back to placing strength before beauty.

I believe he post ww2 pieces have degraded {IMHO}more often than not to placing beauty before function.

spiral

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Sancar

Tokugawa shogunate samurai katanas are used mostly to cut down armless poor peasents for even tiniest hints of perceived insolance."

Yes, Samurai had the right to do this. But in reality it was an exceptional case if this happened. First, Samurai were also just human beings and secondly, a katana is much too valuable to risk its sharpness in the body of a peasant.
In the Edo-Period Samurai katana were used mostly for duels and wakizashi for seppuku.
It is similar to a european knight, a proud knight only fight against another knight.

Roland

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

First, Samurai were also just human beings and secondly, a katana is much too valuable to risk its sharpness in the body of a peasant.

In the Edo-Period Samurai katana were used mostly for duels and wakizashi for seppuku.

Roland

To my belief system they were not just. They were predatory bullies.

Also Most post koto Wakizashi, would I understand have been owned by merchants, not Samarai? & they weren't all killing themselves with there Wakizashi!

spiral

[sirupate]

I fail to see that Samurai were bullies, from a letter from Will Adams to Bantam in 1612, in which he talks about the Japanese;
‘The people of this Land of Japan are good of nature, courteous above measure, and valiant in war: their justice is severely executed without any partiality upon transgressors of the law. They are governed in great civility. I mean, not a land better governed in the world by civil policy.
Regarding Wakizashi;
In 1629 the Tokugawa Shogunate issued an ‘Edict’ requiring Samurai when on ‘Official’ duty to wear the Daisho, the kamishimo costume allowed the wearing of the Wakizashi with the Katana, primarily before the kamishimo costume the tanto was worn, and even then there was no formal size associated to sword name until 1645.
Regarding Japanese Swords, traditionally made;
The Ming Court started importing them in 1404 for 'their sharpness and cutting
ability, but also because of their splendid mountings', and started to copy them as did the Koreans and Siamese
The Royal Armouries; 'The use of composite construction is shared by blacksmiths of many cultures worldwide, but few attained the skill and experience of the Japanese swordsmiths that led to the remarkable beauty and efficiency of Japanese blades.'
Non Traditional WW2 Gunto sword;
The Metallurgical Analysis of a Japanese Samurai Sword was done by the American War Office, on a Japanese officer’s Gunto Sword (mass produced; the Carbon rating of the blade was
1.05. A chemical analysis showed the steel had many non-ferrous inclusions, indicating very poor quality steel.), requested by the US War Department, Office of the Chief of Ordinance, and conducted at the Watertown Arsenal Laboratory.
Hardness: When the hardness tests were completed, it was found the blade was softest in the tang (as low as 348 Vickers) with hardness increasing towards the longitudinal middle of the blade (550 Vickers), and dropping off slightly as the tip was neared. Edge hardness was fairly consistent for the entire length of the blade (air quenched): between 442 and 446 VHP
The specs for the Gunto Sword are way below par for a well made traditional Nihonto

[spiral]

Originally Posted by sirupate

I fail to see that Samurai were bullies, from a letter from Will Adams to Bantam in 1612, in which he talks about the Japanese;
‘The people of this Land of Japan are good of nature, courteous above measure, and valiant in war: their justice is severely executed without any partiality upon transgressors of the law. They are governed in great civility. I mean, not a land better governed in the world by civil policy.
Regarding Wakizashi;
In 1629 the Tokugawa Shogunate issued an ‘Edict’ requiring Samurai when on ‘Official’ duty to wear the Daisho, the kamishimo costume allowed the wearing of the Wakizashi with the Katana, primarily before the kamishimo costume the tanto was worn, and even then there was no formal size associated to sword name until 1645.
Regarding Japanese Swords, traditionally made;
The Ming Court started importing them in 1404 for 'their sharpness and cutting
ability, but also because of their splendid mountings', and started to copy them as did the Koreans and Siamese
The Royal Armouries; 'The use of composite construction is shared by blacksmiths of many cultures worldwide, but few attained the skill and experience of the Japanese swordsmiths that led to the remarkable beauty and efficiency of Japanese blades.'
Non Traditional WW2 Gunto sword;
The Metallurgical Analysis of a Japanese Samurai Sword was done by the American War Office, on a Japanese officer’s Gunto Sword (mass produced; the Carbon rating of the blade was
1.05. A chemical analysis showed the steel had many non-ferrous inclusions, indicating very poor quality steel.), requested by the US War Department, Office of the Chief of Ordinance, and conducted at the Watertown Arsenal Laboratory.
Hardness: When the hardness tests were completed, it was found the blade was softest in the tang (as low as 348 Vickers) with hardness increasing towards the longitudinal middle of the blade (550 Vickers), and dropping off slightly as the tip was neared. Edge hardness was fairly consistent for the entire length of the blade (air quenched): between 442 and 446 VHP
The specs for the Gunto Sword are way below par for a well made traditional Nihonto

Your failure to understand my view, is irrelevant to me & it also doesn't surprise me that you think such people are something to aspire to be.

You do make me laugh....Interesting when you couldn't draw me out with your "Papu kukri " thread you then choose this one next.... mmm hoping to get me banned when I tell people in no uncertain terms my experience of knowing you? as I so dislike having to converse with someone who I regard as my deliberate & personal little troll?

I suggest you re read what I posted & then study this page, {you might learn something. But probably not, one needs an open mind to do that.}

Linky re, old jap. swords & koa ishin ww2 gunto.

The page shows the true comparison to the Koa issin & older blades...

Good bye.

[Ian]

Gents:

There is some very "testy" language emerging in this thread that is not in the spirit that this Forum seeks to maintain. Perhaps there are some residual feelings from the recently closed thread concerning kukri marks. Whatever the reason may be, this thread is also at risk of being shut down and individual suspensions handed out. If you want to argue in this manner, please take it to PM or email. In all exchanges, please refrain from any personal attacks on other members.

Ian.

[Battara]

I agree with Ian. This is no place folks for person heat, hostility, or snipes. You have our blessings to exit this thread if you need to.

[VANDOO]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT DAMMAGE FOUND TO WEAPONS NOT MANS INHUMANITY TO MAN OR TO DREGE UP OLD HATREDS OR ARGUMENTS. THERE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH OF THAT ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD SO LETS TRY TO LEARN AND HAVE FUN HERE THIS IS NOT FIGHT CLUB

[drac2k]

Actually the most skilled samurai would test a new sword on the body of a condemned criminal; I believe this practice was called Tameshigiri .

[Timo Nieminen]

"Tameshigiri", literally "test-cutting" iirc. Usually performed by professional sword-testers, "shitoka". Perhaps not the most skilled samurai even in the field of swordsmanship, but expert in their particular art.

On the Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tameshigiri there is the account of the "condemned criminal who, after being told he was to be executed by a sword tester using a Kesa-giri cut, calmly joked that if he had known that was going to happen, he would have swallowed large stones to damage the blade." (Described as apocryphal; iirc this is found in The Sword Book in Honcho Gunkiko, one of the two books published together in English translation in "Sword and Same".)

http://www.japaneseswordsmanship.com...shigiri_h.html

[sirupate]

Here is an excellent article by S. Alexander Takeuchi, Ph.D. on Tameshi-giri and Suemono-giri
tameshi-giri and suemono-giri