KNEE PISTOL for COMMENT

[kahnjar1]

I seem to have had a bit of luck recently in acquiring some new additions for my collection.
The latest is a Turkish Knee Pistol. It is in good working order, but has some age issues, mainly the lock which I think is a period replacement. The rammer is "false" which is quite usual for these.
All comments welcome.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

After removing the barrel from the pistol the following is evident.
The barrel band is a very crudely made later addition, and should not be there IMHO, as the barrel itself is supposed to be attached to the stock with 2 pins. The front pin is missing though the barrel lug is present and unbroken. The rear lug is broken, but the broken piece appears to be still held in the stock by the original pin. The barrel has a hook breech which COULD possibly be a screw breech as marks are evident suggesting this.
Also the breech bears a mark which I do not recognise together with 4 dots. There are also 2 marks on the barrel one above the other. Again I do not recognise these marks, but perhaps one of our knowledgeable readers may be able to identify them.
Additional pics attached.
Stu

[Richard G]

The last two look like an attempt at a crown over crossed sceptres, which is a British proof mark. If this is so the previous stamp could be an inspector's mark. Certain aspects of this gun have a British feel, India might be a possibility.
Regards
Richarc

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Richard G

The last two look like an attempt at a crown over crossed sceptres, which is a British proof mark. If this is so the previous stamp could be an inspector's mark. Certain aspects of this gun have a British feel, India might be a possibility.
Regards
Richarc

Hi Richard,
Sorry but no these are not British marks. I have been doing a little research of my own and I believe that the barrel mark is in fact French. See attached pics. The "solo" mark (#5) is the one on the barrel. The mark on the breech hook at this stage remains a mystery, but it is as you say, it is likely to be an Inspectors mark of some sort.
Stu

[Richard G]

Stu,
I agree. If these had been British proof marks I would have doubted their authenticity.
I wouldn't argue with a French attribution as the origin.
Best wishes
Richard

[rickystl]

Hi Stu.

Congratulations. That is a very interesting Ottoman style Knee Pistol. And it appears to have seen considerable action back in it's day. Some observations:

STOCK: The stock on this one is plain, undecorated as many were. Note the thick diameter of the wrist/grip area. Common with these guns. I've never seen one of these pistols broke at the wrist area. I believe this was done by design. Makes the stock very strong in the grip area.

LOCK: Yes, the lock does look like a locally made, period replacement. Which would not be uncommon. The original lock probably became in-operable at some point and was simply replaced with one that was readily available versus having a new one made. The general style of the lock looks like it was trying to duplicate a late period English flintlock. However, there is no "fence" connecting the pan to the frizzen (a pre-1750 feature). So, just the local lock maker's interpretation I guess. Unusual.

BARREL: Now this is interesting. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a hook breech. The European/French origin of the barrel makes sense. The style of lugs for the pins also looks European. The chisel work with remains of gold wash at the breach seem to be a common theme for these Knee Pistol barrels. I've seen these barrels pin-fastened, and others fastened with bands. And a couple that were pin-fastened with barrel bands just for decoration. With the marks on the barrel, all the evidence seems to point to a European barrel made for export. Which would not be a big surprise. But! the hook breech is an unusual and very neat feature for this gun. Nice find Stu.

This so called Knee Pistol design likely originated somewhere in Europe. But it seems to have never caught on. I've never seen a true Europen version. But it was most certainly popular in the Ottoman/Eastern markets. With so many examples still available today attests to this popularity. From highly decorated to very plain, and all points in between.

Rick

[BANDOOK]

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

[Victrix]

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Why are they called Knee Pistols? Were they fired whilst held against the knee? Would that have been in a sitting position on horse/camel back?

Hi Victrix,
Yes IMHO it is the likely reason. To fire from the shoulder would have been nigh impossible due to stock length. Also the fact that the barrel is bell mouthed would make for easy reloading on horse/camel back.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

HI STU AM POSTING PICTURES OF MY KNEE PISTOL,REGARDS RAJESH

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

[Miguel]

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Sorry to appear so thick but would you mind explaining to me why it is called a knee pistol, it looks like a blunder us to me but then I have scarcely any knowledge of firearms hence my question.
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

[Pukka Bundook]

Stu,

I think you have been talking to a pal of mine, old M. T, to get this one. :-)
He's on his way to our annual shoot here in Canada right now.

Very nice and lots of age to it! Very well used , showing they were not kept "just for show".

In GBG, 1540 -1740, W Keith -Neal shows an English pair of these. Similar in overall looks, but also it shows that such were made in the Uk, ....at least once!
Keith Neal had thoughts that they may have originated in England, and spread eastwards, but I cannot remember if I thought he had a strong case for believing such. To me, as they were so common in Turkish lands, I think someone had the pair made in England as a novelty, but do recall they had also seen much use, and if memory serves, one had a sling for casting over the shoulder when on horseback or similar.
Very nice Stu, & congrats!

Richard.

[rickystl]

I expect the term "knee" pistol is a more contemporary term. The gun being fired from horseback with the butt of the stock against the knee, theigh, waist, or maybe even the front of the saddle seems to be the only logical explanation.
It's also light enough to be held in one hand like a normal pistol. I don't really see any advantage to this design over a typical horse pistol. But for some reason they remained popular in the Eastern markets for a long time.

Hi Bandook. Yes Stu, that's a good question: Is that a BRASS barrel on your piece? It does look like it from the one photo. To me, the lock looks original to the mortise. Just a bit of wood eaten away from constant use. I too have that photo in my library showing the knee pistol. Very neat. Let us know about the barrel on your's. Don't recall seeing one with a brass barrel.

Rick

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Miguel,
These, I suppose could be called a "blunderbuss pistol". They are not designed to be fired from the shoulder as the stock is far too short, so are not a true blunderbuss. When fired from horse or camel back, the knee would be the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.....hence I guess the term "Knee pistol".
If you have a look at the old postcard of the Sheiks kindly posted above by Rajesh, you will get an idea of the relative size of these weapons.
Hope this clarifies your question.
Stu

Thanks for the explanation Stu you have answered my question perfectly for which I am much obliged
Miguel

[BANDOOK]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Rajesh,
Is the barrel of yours brass? Looks to have that sort of sheen to it. Also I note,(and commented on by Rick in his reply above,) that the lock on your pistols does not appear to fit the mortice properly either. Another possible replacement lock??
Stu

Hi Stu ,yes its brass and am posting some more images for you,regards Rajesh

[rickystl]

Hi Bandook.

WOW!!! That is a brass barrel. Most likely European made. This is the first Knee Pistol I've seen with a brass barrel. Between the brass barrel on your's and the hook breech on Stu's, .........first time I've seen either. Very neat.
Thanks for the additional pics.

Rick

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by rickystl

It's also light enough to be held in one hand like a normal pistol. I don't really see any advantage to this design over a typical horse pistol. k

Do not forget that these barrels normally have been loaded with a good handful of buckshot and the appropriate amount of powder. So I think that it was'nt that easy to held the knee pistol in one hand. The recoil was certainly remarkable, so the knee, better the thigh or the saddle would have been the most useful part of the body to rest the stock against.
A knee pistol of my collection in a condition rarely found.
corrado26

[rickystl]

Hi Corrado.

That is a magnificant example, and in ultra fine condition!!!! What a beauty!!!
I would almost be scared to handle it without gloves. LOL!!!
What a fantastic piece to have in a collection.

Rick

[Kubur]

Corrado your firearm collection is amazing.
I'm speechless.
Tell me if i'm wrong, the style of this gun is very French.
I will say around 1805-1815.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Tell me if i'm wrong, the style of this gun is very French.
I will say around 1805-1815.

Honestly I have to say that I don't know where this piece has been made. Its lock is certainly not French but maybe English and the signature on the lockplate makes absolutely no sense. I think this pistol might have been made in the Osman Empire by a very good gunmaker for a higher ranked person.
corrado26

[kahnjar1]

Hi Corrado,
I see from the pics that you have had the barrel off the stock. Are there any marks on the underside, and if so could you please posts pics. Origin (at least of the barrel) may be solved by such marks.
Stu

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Honestly I have to say that I don't know where this piece has been made. Its lock is certainly not French but maybe English and the signature on the lockplate makes absolutely no sense. I think this pistol might have been made in the Osman Empire by a very good gunmaker for a higher ranked person.
corrado26

Amigo
I'm sure it's French or at least Belgian, early 19th c.
You can find a lot of litterature about these guns made for export - for the Turkish market.
Sometimes they engraved 'LONDON' on the barrel or the lock.
At that time it was very 'chic' to have something from London.
I guess now too.
I think that someone tried to writte LONDON on your lock, but he wrote NULTEN. Clearly the guy was not fluent in English and probably better in Arabic...
Best,
Kubur

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Are there any marks on the underside, and if so could you please posts pics. Origin (at least of the barrel) may be solved by such marks.

Sorry, but there are no marks anywhere, neither at the underside of the barrel, at the inside of the stock nor at the inside of the lockplate.
corrado26

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I'm sure it's French or at least Belgian, early 19th c.
You can find a lot of litterature about these guns made for export - for the Turkish market.
Sometimes they engraved 'LONDON' on the barrel or the lock.
At that time it was very 'chic' to have something from London.
I guess now too.
I think that someone tried to writte LONDON on your lock, but he wrote NULTEN. Clearly the guy was not fluent in English and probably better in Arabic...

This wrong signature shows me that it is probably made in the Osmanic Empire. A French or Belgium gunmaker would have been able to write the LONDON-adress correctly because he knew the Roman letters, whereas a Turkish worker without knowledge of the european ABC used very often phantasy letters
corrado26

[Richard G]

Two points I would like to make;-

It occurs to me that a butt of this type would sit more comfortably on your lap or thigh than that of a pistol if it was being held upright to load whilst on horseback.

Although the consensus is that these are mounted men's weapons none of these examples seem to to possess a slide or ring or any mechanism to tether the thing if not being held.

Just thoughts
Regards
Richard

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by corrado26

This wrong signature shows me that it is probably made in the Osmanic Empire. A French or Belgium gunmaker would have been able to write the LONDON-adress correctly because he knew the Roman letters, whereas a Turkish worker without knowledge of the european ABC used very often phantasy letters
corrado26

Yes it's exactly what I said!
But for me the engraving was made later.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Although the consensus is that these are mounted men's weapons none of these examples seem to to possess a slide or ring or any mechanism to tether the thing if not being held.

I also have thought about that, why would there not be some way to hold these types secure as in the examples below.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Two points I would like to make;-

It occurs to me that a butt of this type would sit more comfortably on your lap or thigh than that of a pistol if it was being held upright to load whilst on horseback.

Although the consensus is that these are mounted men's weapons none of these examples seem to to possess a slide or ring or any mechanism to tether the thing if not being held.

Just thoughts
Regards
Richard

Good observation. I heard that it's very difficult to shoot accurately whilst sitting astride a highly strung and nervous animal, so the buckshot would be more effective than a single musketball. I guess these knee pistols are nothing but glorified sawn-off shotguns in reality? They would have been useful to shotgun messengers on stagecoaches too. They may have been considered too clumsy to be carried across the back when on a bumpy ride and therefore kept in saddle holsters?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Victrix

They may have been considered too clumsy to be carried across the back when on a bumpy ride and therefore kept in saddle holsters?

A possibility, but I do not believe that I have seen a saddle holster for an Indo-Persian blunderbuss so far, maybe someone else has.