Keris with Two Pamor??

Paul de Souza · 16th December 2016, 09:28 AM

Apologies if I seem to be spamming but been looking at some of my keris and have questions about them. It has been a while since I had such a level of curiosity.

I have here a Java keris with different pamor on different sides of the blade and I can't seem to have an idea of why it is so or how it was manufactured. Can the pamor of the keris be considered the Blarak Ngirid(?) as that is the pamor of the main side of the wilah where the gandik is facing left (as I was told)?

Is it a case of "sloppy" or "bungled" manufacture since the pamor on the different sides of the blade are different. Is it a typical or acceptable Javanese practice within the context of its keris culture?

On the pendok of the keris is inscribed the words "Sawijadi Siaka". Any significance?

The pictures are taken with my phone so not very clear.

Any opinions and comments welcome.

kai · 16th December 2016, 04:37 PM

Hello Paul,

Nice Madura blade! Thanks for showing more of your collection. I don't think anybody will complain - please keep them coming!

Keris with different pamor on each side are a bit more common on Java/Madura but also seen in keris Melayu. Since each pamor layer sits on the steel layer in the middle (san mai construction), it does not really matter during the forging whether the pamor is different. For complex pamor it might even be argued that it may be easier since you don't need to strive for keeping the pattern alike on both sides...

I hope Alan et al. will chime in the metaphysical pros and cons of having different pamor on each side. Of course, there are also the dwiwarna and triwarna blades with more than one pamor motif on any given side...

Regards,
Kai

David · 16th December 2016, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Is it a case of "sloppy" or "bungled" manufacture since the pamor on the different sides of the blade are different. Is it a typical or acceptable Javanese practice within the context of its keris culture?

Paul, YOU spamming??? It would never even cross my mind.
As Kai has pointed out different pamor on each side of a blade is indeed quite intentional and acceptable in Javanese practice. Dwi Warna actually refers to having two different pamors on the same side of a blade. When a different pamor appears of each side of a blade it is called "tangkis" and the general purpose of such blades is as a protection against black magick.

A. G. Maisey · 17th December 2016, 05:42 AM

As David has said, this is pamor tangkis, and it is a specific protection against black magic.

The last blade that I know of that was made with this pamor, and with the protective intent, rather than as a work of art or a dress keris, was finished in about 1988.

This may be a Madura blade, but if it is, I think Madura Sepuh. In fact I cannot see sufficient indication to call this as Madura. To my eye it looks more like a North Coast blade. But in any case, I'd need to see it a lot better than I can in these pics, and would probably need it in my hand before I'd call it anything.

"sawijadi siaka" makes no sense to me.

Paul de Souza · 14th May 2018, 02:48 PM

Better pictures I hope.

Jean · 14th May 2018, 03:14 PM

IMO the pamor patterns are Lar Gangsir Wengkon on one side, and Nunggak Semi/ Ngulit Semangka (or just Ngulit Semangka) on the other but different opinions are welcome.
Regards

Sajen · 14th May 2018, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

IMO the pamor patterns are Lar Gangsir Wengkon on one side, and Nunggak Semi/ Ngulit Semangka (or just Ngulit Semangka) on the other but different opinions are welcome.

Agree with Jean. Nice keris tangkis. I doubt the Madura origin.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 14th May 2018, 08:07 PM

Here a few fast taken pictures from my own keris tangkis.

16th December 2016, 09:28 AM	#1
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Keris with Two Pamor?? Apologies if I seem to be spamming but been looking at some of my keris and have questions about them. It has been a while since I had such a level of curiosity. I have here a Java keris with different pamor on different sides of the blade and I can't seem to have an idea of why it is so or how it was manufactured. Can the pamor of the keris be considered the Blarak Ngirid(?) as that is the pamor of the main side of the wilah where the gandik is facing left (as I was told)? Is it a case of "sloppy" or "bungled" manufacture since the pamor on the different sides of the blade are different. Is it a typical or acceptable Javanese practice within the context of its keris culture? On the pendok of the keris is inscribed the words "Sawijadi Siaka". Any significance? The pictures are taken with my phone so not very clear. Any opinions and comments welcome. Attached Images

14th May 2018, 02:48 PM	#5
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Better pictures I hope. Attached Images

14th May 2018, 08:07 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Here a few fast taken pictures from my own keris tangkis. Attached Images

16th December 2016, 04:37 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Paul, Nice Madura blade! Thanks for showing more of your collection. I don't think anybody will complain - please keep them coming! Keris with different pamor on each side are a bit more common on Java/Madura but also seen in keris Melayu. Since each pamor layer sits on the steel layer in the middle (san mai construction), it does not really matter during the forging whether the pamor is different. For complex pamor it might even be argued that it may be easier since you don't need to strive for keeping the pattern alike on both sides... I hope Alan et al. will chime in the metaphysical pros and cons of having different pamor on each side. Of course, there are also the dwiwarna and triwarna blades with more than one pamor motif on any given side... Regards, Kai

17th December 2016, 05:42 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	As David has said, this is pamor tangkis, and it is a specific protection against black magic. The last blade that I know of that was made with this pamor, and with the protective intent, rather than as a work of art or a dress keris, was finished in about 1988. This may be a Madura blade, but if it is, I think Madura Sepuh. In fact I cannot see sufficient indication to call this as Madura. To my eye it looks more like a North Coast blade. But in any case, I'd need to see it a lot better than I can in these pics, and would probably need it in my hand before I'd call it anything. "sawijadi siaka" makes no sense to me.

14th May 2018, 03:14 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	IMO the pamor patterns are Lar Gangsir Wengkon on one side, and Nunggak Semi/ Ngulit Semangka (or just Ngulit Semangka) on the other but different opinions are welcome. Regards