Yemen Jambiya?

Lew · 21st September 2009, 03:52 AM

Picked this up today looks Yemeni early 20th century with a well forged single layer blade. Horn hilt could be rhino but I don't think so?

Steve · 22nd September 2009, 03:32 AM

Hi Lew,
I'm glad you bought this piece and posted it for comment. I was also watching it on ebay. I agree with you, in that I don't think the hilt material is rhino. The mabsem doesn't show a lot of wear but the platted design certainly puts it into the bottom west corner of the arabian peninsula.
The silver looks pretty good quality?
Do you have any feeling on a closer geographic basis for where the dagger would have originated?
Steve

Lew · 22nd September 2009, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

Hi Lew,
I'm glad you bought this piece and posted it for comment. I was also watching it on ebay. I agree with you, in that I don't think the hilt material is rhino. The mabsem doesn't show a lot of wear but the platted design certainly puts it into the bottom west corner of the arabian peninsula.
The silver looks pretty good quality?
Do you have any feeling on a closer geographic basis for where the dagger would have originated?
Steve

Steve

here are a few other Yemeni examples for comparison.

Michael Blalock · 22nd September 2009, 02:52 PM

This type is worn in the Lahej. The area around Aden and the other small feudal kingdoms with a long tradition of contact with India.

Ferguson · 22nd September 2009, 03:31 PM

Very nice!
Steve F

Steve · 23rd September 2009, 02:12 AM

Thanks Lew, I've always liked the silver hilted one, if you happen to want to sell in the future?

Following from Michael's comment, I think the little leather scabbard was the scabbard of choice in the Lahij and Yaffa areas, and also well represented in the Hadramaut. This scabbard style also translated into a silver equivalent. Although Elgood doesn't give an example I think the "madd" referred to on page 86 is describing this scabbard, but probably in silver? I would be interested if someone else has an interpretation of the "madd"?

However these handy little leather scabbards also found their way throughout Yemen. The photo, which I've hopefully attached, shows seven daggers in the leather scabbards, only one of which comes from the southern area. The hilt design and silver work can give a good guide as to where the dagger originally came from.
steve

Montino Bourbon · 23rd September 2009, 02:17 AM

Which handle matches which location? I would love that.

Lew · 23rd September 2009, 12:26 PM

Steve

Those are great examples have never seen that style of banding at hilt have only seen the herring bone style. Can you post a pic with the blades showing?

Lew

Steve · 24th September 2009, 11:26 AM

Hi Lew,
I've attached a photo with the blades showing , but I substituted one original dagger with another silver hilted dagger. This silver hilted dagger - which is one of my favourires -also came in a small leather hand stitched scabbard from Taiz.
As you can see I clean the blades but don't have the ability or time to polish them.
Steve

Lew · 24th September 2009, 11:58 AM

Steve

That is a really nice bunch of jambiya you have. The silver one on the end is lovely I think it is a Mecca style variation?

Lew

Steve · 25th September 2009, 01:04 AM

Lew,
Yes, I also think that the silver design on top of the hilt has some Mecca imagery. The dagger is heavy, with chunky silver and has a rural feel about it.
I've attached another photo.
There are many interesting points about this group but one is the other silver hilted dagger. I have seen a few of this style around. The silver is quite thin but of high quality and wears with use very quickly. I think the dagger originated in Assir. However if you look at Elgood p.91/92 I think you can see the same dagger in the Hadramaut in 1943 and if you look at Artzi's home page the same dagger is there with a Mecca style scabbard. I think Artzi's one looks the most natural and is probably closest to it's original format. Unfortunately I can't get a clear close up to really examine the total jambiya. I have attached a small photo from the web page.

Goes to show how these daggers got around - but we are not talking about large distances in the Assir/Yemen area.

Steve

Oriental-Arms · 25th September 2009, 02:20 PM

Here is a photo of the Mecca style Jambiya reffered to by Steve.

The handle is silver and the pommel is supposedly a presentation of the Kaaba mosque in Mecca. I have however seen similar handles on Yemeni and Hadramout daggers as well (see my comment on the origin of styles below).

More Yemeni Jambiya daggers from our private collection below:

#1) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings
#2) Supposedly Amber handle (need to confirm it)
#3) Whole silver handle, silver scabbard.
#4) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings, silver scabbard.
#5) Rhino horn handle with pierced silver fittings.
#6) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings and colored stone also on the scabbard
#7) Cow horn with silver nails

Regarding # 5 and 7, the size, scabbard style and pierced fittings suggest an Indian origin. May be made in India for export to Arabia or for the use of local wealthy Arab.

To the origin of styles:

The attempt to identify and typify the styles of handle and scabbard to a certain area or origin is a great challenge and I hope someone will do it. Yet I am afraid that styles has been migrated during the last 200 years all over the peninsula, changed blades and scabbards so what we see today is a mix of all styles all over. Best of luck to whoever will challenge it.

fernando · 25th September 2009, 04:29 PM

Sorry for the intrusion

Looks like this shape is missing here

Isn't it also regularly seen?
Fernando

.

kahnjar1 · 25th September 2009, 10:20 PM

This hilt is similar to one posted by Fernando, but the scabbard is entirely different. Translation is makers name and Jeddah 1958. Comments?
Regards Stu

Steve · 26th September 2009, 06:01 AM

Thanks Artzi, all and any information is helpful. It's interesting to see daggers 3 and 4 used in the Hadrami silver scabbards.
Stu, I have found a jambiya I have which is a little cruder than your one but seems to have similar words written on the reverse of the handle. If you look at the writing you can see similar formations. I am sure there is no date and am guessing that Jedda is not mentioned - but maybe another town. I have included a pic of the dagger and a stamp on the blade (which I think is very unusual) which may indicate Saudi made?

Who did your translation for you? Maybe someone could have a look at mine and give an opinion.
Also, Ferando, I would think the dagger from your post would also have a inscription on the reverse of the handle?

This style dagger with the heavy granulation and two large pins in the hilt is known in Yemen as Hodeida style, from the Tihama plains.
Steve

kahnjar1 · 26th September 2009, 06:31 AM

Hi Steve,
Translation was done by DOM of our Forum in an earlier post re this item. Full translation reads AMAL MOHAMED MIDWANE 1378 (1958AD) JEDDAH. The date is the middle line of 4 symbols.
I do not see any date on yours though.
Stu

Michael Blalock · 26th September 2009, 09:57 PM

I believe it says "made by Mohamed ----" I can read the last part.

Steve · 27th September 2009, 01:25 AM

Thanks Michael. I'm pretty sure my piece was made in Saudi, also probably near Jedda. I forgot to attached a picture of the blade but it has a small Saudi coat of arms with palm fronds stamped into the metal. By the way, I can see you're interested in this region and I appreciate your input on some of the older threads I have read on this forum.
Steve

fernando · 27th September 2009, 04:27 PM

Hi Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve

... Also, Fernando, I would think the dagger from your post would also have a inscription on the reverse of the handle?...

Thanks for pointing out that these variations are called Hodeida and are provenant from the Tihama plains.
The inscription in the handle reads OMAR ABDALLAH HASSAN. The two first names were translated by fellow member Aqtai and the last one was picked by a Moroccan ex-coleague of mine. It was rather easy for her, as Hassan was precisely her husband's name. There is no date in this example.
But there is an interesting inscription 'hidden' in the handle, near the blade fixation, which could be the silversmith mark (name). Assuming that Yemenite Jews were the traditional specialists in the silver work area, this could (should) be an inscription in the local hebrew version, the so called temani.
Have you ever seen such type of inscription?

Fernando

.

ward · 27th September 2009, 05:03 PM

Fernando here is the best guess El-ijahu. My wife knows some hebrew but some of the letters are pretty worn on this example.

fernando · 27th September 2009, 06:15 PM

Hi Ward,

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Fernando here is the best guess El-ijahu. My wife knows some hebrew but some of the letters are pretty worn on this example.

Thank you so much for your (and your wife's) help

.
I will be digesting such unexpected news.
Your'e right, the inscription is rather faded; but the place where it is located and the photographer don't help at all

.

.

fernando · 27th September 2009, 06:48 PM

I am surprised

I always thought that the engraving on the handle reverse was the owner's name, made by the maker, in the act of selling the piece to a client.
Am i definitely wrong?
Fernando

ward · 27th September 2009, 07:44 PM

I would say makers name is correct. I have a yemani powder flask that has hebrew all along the top that no one has been able to translate. You might want to check with Artzi on the translation.

fernando · 27th September 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

I would say makers name is correct. I have a yemani powder flask that has hebrew all along the top that no one has been able to translate. You might want to check with Artzi on the translation.

This time i was referring to the dotted Arabic engraving on the handle pommel, not the the Hebrew symbols near the blade.

ward · 27th September 2009, 08:00 PM

Sorry The Arabic on this piece I believe refers to the owner. You are correct.

Oriental-Arms · 27th September 2009, 08:06 PM

The Hebrew letters does not make much sense. The letters are: ALEF, LAMED, yOD, NOON, HET and the last one is not clear. it might be sound like ELINAH ???, might be name, or the first three letters might sound as ELI - which means MY GOD.

ariel · 27th September 2009, 08:52 PM

The second one looks like Beth/Veth to me: there is a horizontal line at the bottom.
Still, I cannot guess what it means.
Avi- noakh?

ward · 27th September 2009, 10:06 PM

The problem with hebrew and arabic is that it is often written as in this case without voweling. So on top of figuring out the actual letters that are present, than you have to know what vowels to add to the word. I would think in this instance a name would be the most likely, but admit the one we translated to may not be correct. A religous inscription seems doubtful.

fernando · 27th September 2009, 11:19 PM

Thank you Artzi,
Thank you Ariel,
So i see it is quite complex. I will be digesting your sugestions.
Toda raba

.

I see your point Ward, in that it wouldn't be a religious allegory but, instead, the discreet engraving of the silver smith name. I have read somewhere that Hebrew smiths in Yemen (Temani) were allowed to craft janbiyya hilts but not the blades.

Fernando

ward · 27th September 2009, 11:47 PM

Jewish guilds tradionally have done much of the silver and gold work. Even today silver work or koftkagari would be done in a seperate workshop than the forging of blades. One workshop does not generally do all the work on a finished piece for sale but draws on a lot of subcontractors.

24th September 2009, 11:26 AM	#9
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Hi Lew, I've attached a photo with the blades showing , but I substituted one original dagger with another silver hilted dagger. This silver hilted dagger - which is one of my favourires -also came in a small leather hand stitched scabbard from Taiz. As you can see I clean the blades but don't have the ability or time to polish them. Steve Attached Images

25th September 2009, 01:04 AM	#11
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Lew, Yes, I also think that the silver design on top of the hilt has some Mecca imagery. The dagger is heavy, with chunky silver and has a rural feel about it. I've attached another photo. There are many interesting points about this group but one is the other silver hilted dagger. I have seen a few of this style around. The silver is quite thin but of high quality and wears with use very quickly. I think the dagger originated in Assir. However if you look at Elgood p.91/92 I think you can see the same dagger in the Hadramaut in 1943 and if you look at Artzi's home page the same dagger is there with a Mecca style scabbard. I think Artzi's one looks the most natural and is probably closest to it's original format. Unfortunately I can't get a clear close up to really examine the total jambiya. I have attached a small photo from the web page. Goes to show how these daggers got around - but we are not talking about large distances in the Assir/Yemen area. Steve Attached Images

25th September 2009, 02:20 PM	#12
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	More about Yemeni Jambiya Daggers Here is a photo of the Mecca style Jambiya reffered to by Steve. The handle is silver and the pommel is supposedly a presentation of the Kaaba mosque in Mecca. I have however seen similar handles on Yemeni and Hadramout daggers as well (see my comment on the origin of styles below). More Yemeni Jambiya daggers from our private collection below: #1) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings #2) Supposedly Amber handle (need to confirm it) #3) Whole silver handle, silver scabbard. #4) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings, silver scabbard. #5) Rhino horn handle with pierced silver fittings. #6) Rhino horn handle with silver fittings and colored stone also on the scabbard #7) Cow horn with silver nails Regarding # 5 and 7, the size, scabbard style and pierced fittings suggest an Indian origin. May be made in India for export to Arabia or for the use of local wealthy Arab. To the origin of styles: The attempt to identify and typify the styles of handle and scabbard to a certain area or origin is a great challenge and I hope someone will do it. Yet I am afraid that styles has been migrated during the last 200 years all over the peninsula, changed blades and scabbards so what we see today is a mix of all styles all over. Best of luck to whoever will challenge it.

25th September 2009, 04:29 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Sorry for the intrusion Looks like this shape is missing here Isn't it also regularly seen? Fernando . Attached Images

25th September 2009, 10:20 PM	#14
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	And another This hilt is similar to one posted by Fernando, but the scabbard is entirely different. Translation is makers name and Jeddah 1958. Comments? Regards Stu Attached Images

21st September 2009, 03:52 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Yemen Jambiya? Picked this up today looks Yemeni early 20th century with a well forged single layer blade. Horn hilt could be rhino but I don't think so? Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 21st September 2009 at 05:40 PM.

22nd September 2009, 03:32 AM	#2
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Hi Lew, I'm glad you bought this piece and posted it for comment. I was also watching it on ebay. I agree with you, in that I don't think the hilt material is rhino. The mabsem doesn't show a lot of wear but the platted design certainly puts it into the bottom west corner of the arabian peninsula. The silver looks pretty good quality? Do you have any feeling on a closer geographic basis for where the dagger would have originated? Steve

22nd September 2009, 02:52 PM	#4
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	This type is worn in the Lahej. The area around Aden and the other small feudal kingdoms with a long tradition of contact with India.

22nd September 2009, 03:31 PM	#5
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Very nice! Steve F

23rd September 2009, 02:12 AM	#6
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Thanks Lew, I've always liked the silver hilted one, if you happen to want to sell in the future? Following from Michael's comment, I think the little leather scabbard was the scabbard of choice in the Lahij and Yaffa areas, and also well represented in the Hadramaut. This scabbard style also translated into a silver equivalent. Although Elgood doesn't give an example I think the "madd" referred to on page 86 is describing this scabbard, but probably in silver? I would be interested if someone else has an interpretation of the "madd"? However these handy little leather scabbards also found their way throughout Yemen. The photo, which I've hopefully attached, shows seven daggers in the leather scabbards, only one of which comes from the southern area. The hilt design and silver work can give a good guide as to where the dagger originally came from. steve Attached Images

23rd September 2009, 02:17 AM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	so how's about a guide to... Which handle matches which location? I would love that.

23rd September 2009, 12:26 PM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Steve Those are great examples have never seen that style of banding at hilt have only seen the herring bone style. Can you post a pic with the blades showing? Lew

24th September 2009, 11:58 AM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Steve That is a really nice bunch of jambiya you have. The silver one on the end is lovely I think it is a Mecca style variation? Lew

26th September 2009, 06:01 AM	#15
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Thanks Artzi, all and any information is helpful. It's interesting to see daggers 3 and 4 used in the Hadrami silver scabbards. Stu, I have found a jambiya I have which is a little cruder than your one but seems to have similar words written on the reverse of the handle. If you look at the writing you can see similar formations. I am sure there is no date and am guessing that Jedda is not mentioned - but maybe another town. I have included a pic of the dagger and a stamp on the blade (which I think is very unusual) which may indicate Saudi made? Who did your translation for you? Maybe someone could have a look at mine and give an opinion. Also, Ferando, I would think the dagger from your post would also have a inscription on the reverse of the handle? This style dagger with the heavy granulation and two large pins in the hilt is known in Yemen as Hodeida style, from the Tihama plains. Steve Attached Images

26th September 2009, 06:31 AM	#16
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Steve, Translation was done by DOM of our Forum in an earlier post re this item. Full translation reads AMAL MOHAMED MIDWANE 1378 (1958AD) JEDDAH. The date is the middle line of 4 symbols. I do not see any date on yours though. Stu

26th September 2009, 09:57 PM	#17
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	I believe it says "made by Mohamed ----" I can read the last part.

27th September 2009, 01:25 AM	#18
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Thanks Michael. I'm pretty sure my piece was made in Saudi, also probably near Jedda. I forgot to attached a picture of the blade but it has a small Saudi coat of arms with palm fronds stamped into the metal. By the way, I can see you're interested in this region and I appreciate your input on some of the older threads I have read on this forum. Steve

27th September 2009, 05:03 PM	#20
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Fernando here is the best guess El-ijahu. My wife knows some hebrew but some of the letters are pretty worn on this example.

27th September 2009, 06:48 PM	#22
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Maker's name or owner's name ? I am surprised I always thought that the engraving on the handle reverse was the owner's name, made by the maker, in the act of selling the piece to a client. Am i definitely wrong? Fernando

27th September 2009, 07:44 PM	#23
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I would say makers name is correct. I have a yemani powder flask that has hebrew all along the top that no one has been able to translate. You might want to check with Artzi on the translation.

27th September 2009, 08:00 PM	#25
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Sorry The Arabic on this piece I believe refers to the owner. You are correct.

27th September 2009, 08:06 PM	#26
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Hebrew Translation The Hebrew letters does not make much sense. The letters are: ALEF, LAMED, yOD, NOON, HET and the last one is not clear. it might be sound like ELINAH ???, might be name, or the first three letters might sound as ELI - which means MY GOD.

27th September 2009, 08:52 PM	#27
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The second one looks like Beth/Veth to me: there is a horizontal line at the bottom. Still, I cannot guess what it means. Avi- noakh?

27th September 2009, 10:06 PM	#28
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The problem with hebrew and arabic is that it is often written as in this case without voweling. So on top of figuring out the actual letters that are present, than you have to know what vowels to add to the word. I would think in this instance a name would be the most likely, but admit the one we translated to may not be correct. A religous inscription seems doubtful.

27th September 2009, 11:19 PM	#29
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Artzi, Thank you Ariel, So i see it is quite complex. I will be digesting your sugestions. Toda raba . I see your point Ward, in that it wouldn't be a religious allegory but, instead, the discreet engraving of the silver smith name. I have read somewhere that Hebrew smiths in Yemen (Temani) were allowed to craft janbiyya hilts but not the blades. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 27th September 2009 at 11:42 PM.

27th September 2009, 11:47 PM	#30
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Jewish guilds tradionally have done much of the silver and gold work. Even today silver work or koftkagari would be done in a seperate workshop than the forging of blades. One workshop does not generally do all the work on a finished piece for sale but draws on a lot of subcontractors.