Jambiya for Identification

Stan S. · 17th November 2011, 09:08 PM

This is still hot off eBay (I don’t think that I am prohibited form posting an item that finished on eBay with me being the auction winner, or am I?) and was being sold as an Indian Jambiya. Somehow I am not so sure due to a wide blade with a central ridge, which reminds me of North African Jambiyas. Then again, there is a well pronounced ricasso, and that points in the direction of India/Persia. And ofcourse the floral motive in decoration - I happen to have a 17" Indian Dhal in my collection with almost identical engraving of multi-colored flowers (will post a picture soon for comparisent). Based on the style of scabbard (i. e. belt loops) and what appears to be nickel plating on the hilt, I would venture a guess that this piece is of an early 20th century manufacture. However, I am very much open to all opinions. I especially want to get a confirmation of the origin of this dagger and hope that one of the experts here can point me in the right direction.

Please keep in mind that the pictures I am uploading were taken by the seller, as I am yet to receive this item.

Stan S. · 17th November 2011, 11:43 PM

And here is the shield that bears the same decoration of engraved and colored (enamel?) flowers in the center:

Lew · 17th November 2011, 11:51 PM

Hi Stan

The jambiya in question is mid to late 20th century and looks like a tourist piece to me.

Jim McDougall · 18th November 2011, 12:20 AM

I think that Stan has already acknowledged this is a 20th century piece, and was trying to determine which region or form of janbiyya which may have influenced or determined the prototype. I think that in many cases of modern items dismissed as 'tourist items' they can also in many cases be elements of native traditional costume which though not actually intended as 'weapons' may still be worn. Obviously huge numbers of items are made intended to be sold as souveniers, but some which give extra attention to traditional detail could plausibly be used as I suggest.
Clearly my suggestion will be hotly contested by many collectors, but I think it is a circumstance which certainly may exist. In many cases I think that native people often wear such items knowing they will likely be purchased by 'tourists' upon which they gladly sell it, then repurchase new 'stock'.
In this manner, still represent the weapons of the region.

Stan, thank you for your keen attention and concern for posting protocol and the courteous manner in which you attend to these matters. Your awareness of necessary perameters is very much appreciated. Nicely done!

All best regards,
Jim

Dom · 18th November 2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

which reminds me of North African Jambiyas.

nothing to do with "North Africa" ... it's well, "Indian"
I agreed when "Lew" wrote, that it's a bazaar article

but, if it's pleasing you, that's the essential

à +

Dom

Atlantia · 18th November 2011, 12:50 AM

these date to the 1970s/80s and were retailed along with the 'lion head' Kukris and other types of knives and swords, most with either this type of hilt of hilts of black buffalo horn.
Large hybrid knives with blades that look like a pesh-kabz crossed with a bowie, even 'Sinbad' type swords with broad squared off ends and I particularly remember a strange sword with a blade shaped like a fish (same plating and dot designs to emulate scales and features).

A shop near here seemed to sell the whole range in about 1978-80, so I remember them vividly as a youngster with an eye for exotic knives.

If you look hard enough there are even variants of the lion head Kukri with this type of handle, although they are less common compared to the familiar lion head ones.
They were made in India, produced in large numbers and exported widely.
The dot pattern designs on the nickel plated blade are a bit of a theme on this particular range, They were often sold alongside those black scabbard Sabres with 'India' etched into the blades.

They may have been available in India to those who travel, they were certainly available in the Uk, although for every one of the less common types there seem to have been about a hundred lion-kukris sold in various sizes. So surviving examples of types such as this are not common anymore.
I've seen two of three like this one in the last few years while I've seen over a hundred of the lion-head kukris and prehaps 4 or 5 of the kukri with this type of plated carved/painted hilt in the same time period.

I've never seen one of the fish swords again after that shop stopped selling them so presumably not a big seller!

Jim McDougall · 18th November 2011, 12:58 AM

OK guys

so Im a romantic !!

It sounded like a good story, maybe I could write movies.

I still say Stan I like your style !!!

Best,
Jim

Stan S. · 18th November 2011, 02:54 AM

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the input but I can not help it to be angry at myself and question my ability to tell genuine indo persian weapons from fakes. I thought that I was pretty good at it but alas

At least I am smart enough to stay away from all India-engraved blades, lionhead kukries, modern mechanical damascus replicas and the like.

Interestingly enough my 2 newest aquisitions (that turned out to be tourist pieces) are said to be made in the 70s-80s. Perhaps the reason I am so easily fooled is because the 80s found me in my pre- and early teens, which is well before I developed interest in collecting and did not have access to the sources that would help me educate myself. Oh well, live and learn...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th November 2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the input but I can not help it to be angry at myself and question my ability to tell genuine indo persian weapons from fakes. I thought that I was pretty good at it but alas

At least I am smart enough to stay away from all India-engraved blades, lionhead kukries, modern mechanical damascus replicas and the like.

Interestingly enough my 2 newest aquisitions (that turned out to be tourist pieces) are said to be made in the 70s-80s. Perhaps the reason I am so easily fooled is because the 80s found me in my pre- and early teens, which is well before I developed interest in collecting and did not have access to the sources that would help me educate myself. Oh well, live and learn...

Salaams Stan~ Ok so the dagger isn't from the Ark but it doesn't matter... the great thing is you got stuck in and had a good look at it and it does have some nice interesting markings which are difficult even for people who know to get their heads round... I sat and watched a superb craftsman make a new dagger in the same region and it looked every inch like 200 years old. While we all try to avoid fakes they are even in their own right part of the story; after all, how many swords do we encounter with fake stamps? In Afghanistan and surrounding areas they still knock out almost passable Martini Henrys and Lee Enfields. I bet this forum could field quite a few fakes into a rogues gallery !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dom · 18th November 2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

even for people who know to get their heads round... I sat and watched a

Salam Aleikum
Ibrahiim you are fully right ... I have been caught ... and I will be ... again

now, I refuse to buy when pictures are too dark, and the seller make difficulties,
to provide good pic's, and i'm laughing when I saw some offers ...
no shame to have been screwed, that's arrived to the best expert

à +

Dom

Jim McDougall · 18th November 2011, 08:30 PM

Stan, dont feel too badly...trust me, everybody here has been through thier own stings!!! The main thing is you learn, and I would like to thank you for being a great sport in sharing the experience. It takes a considerable courage to openly share such fragile and delicate matters here, as can be seen by the huge volume who post as opposed to those who simply view. Most fear they will look silly or be criticized, but as you have shown, that is not the case.

Nicely done Stan,
All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 18th November 2011, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Stan, dont feel too badly...trust me, everybody here has been through thier own stings!!! The main thing is you learn, and I would like to thank you for being a great sport in sharing the experience. It takes a considerable courage to openly share such fragile and delicate matters here, as can be seen by the huge volume who post as opposed to those who simply view. Most fear they will look silly or be criticized, but as you have shown, that is not the case.

Nicely done Stan,
All the best,
Jim

Absolutely right my friend!

Stan,
At least is IS a knife!
I recently bought a #*%!!@# Laundry Bat thinking it was some sort of club!
I never worry about looking foolish!

...... Good job probobly.

kahnjar1 · 18th November 2011, 09:20 PM

Hi Stan,
I agree with those above who say that even those who have collected for many years, still get stung sometimes. There are those out there who are turning out extremely good modern made items and asking silly prices for what is, actually only a replica. Personally I detest that sort of thing and if I DO get stung from one of those sources, then there is no way I would ever deal with it again.
An old collector friend of mine once said to me that if an item does not look quite right, then it probably isn't......and I am sure he was right about that.
Pictures unfortunately can hide many things, and IMHO the only way to be sure, is to physically hold the item in your hand before buying. With internet selling of course it is impossible to do that, BUT you can ask questions thru the system and if a seller has not told the truth, there are usually ways to retrieve your $, provided you keep a "paper trail". Also as DOM said, be very suspect of poor quality photos.
Regards Stu

Stan S. · 18th November 2011, 11:15 PM

Thank you gentlemen for the kind words of encouragement. I am not afraid to look foolish (sometimes all it takes is a good look in the mirror to know that one can’t hide the truth

). While I may not have been collecting as long and as extensively as some of the members here, I too have had my experiences both with getting duped and finding terrific bargains from uneducated folks who don’t know or don’t care about the value of what they are selling. In fact, I have to admit that I have a few handmade, good quality replicas in my collection that I bought on a whim and never regret doing so.

The seller of this dagger did not make any representations in regards to its age other than saying that is is old, which is a relative term. I saw the item and judged it to be from the early 20th century (WW1 era). Few things looked a bit suspicious to me but I took the risk. Despite this alledgedly being a tourist piece it does not appear to be cheaply made, and as such will find its rightful place on my wall. Of course I will be able to better judge what I have once the item reaches me by mail. In any case, my mistake only sets me back $65, so not a tremendous loss and it is still a pretty cool looking dagger.

Thanks again to all who replied. I look forward to learning more from this forum and from each of you.

17th November 2011, 09:08 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Jambiya for Identification This is still hot off eBay (I don’t think that I am prohibited form posting an item that finished on eBay with me being the auction winner, or am I?) and was being sold as an Indian Jambiya. Somehow I am not so sure due to a wide blade with a central ridge, which reminds me of North African Jambiyas. Then again, there is a well pronounced ricasso, and that points in the direction of India/Persia. And ofcourse the floral motive in decoration - I happen to have a 17" Indian Dhal in my collection with almost identical engraving of multi-colored flowers (will post a picture soon for comparisent). Based on the style of scabbard (i. e. belt loops) and what appears to be nickel plating on the hilt, I would venture a guess that this piece is of an early 20th century manufacture. However, I am very much open to all opinions. I especially want to get a confirmation of the origin of this dagger and hope that one of the experts here can point me in the right direction. Please keep in mind that the pictures I am uploading were taken by the seller, as I am yet to receive this item. Attached Images

17th November 2011, 11:43 PM	#2
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	And here is the shield that bears the same decoration of engraved and colored (enamel?) flowers in the center: Attached Images

18th November 2011, 12:50 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	these date to the 1970s/80s and were retailed along with the 'lion head' Kukris and other types of knives and swords, most with either this type of hilt of hilts of black buffalo horn. Large hybrid knives with blades that look like a pesh-kabz crossed with a bowie, even 'Sinbad' type swords with broad squared off ends and I particularly remember a strange sword with a blade shaped like a fish (same plating and dot designs to emulate scales and features). A shop near here seemed to sell the whole range in about 1978-80, so I remember them vividly as a youngster with an eye for exotic knives. If you look hard enough there are even variants of the lion head Kukri with this type of handle, although they are less common compared to the familiar lion head ones. They were made in India, produced in large numbers and exported widely. The dot pattern designs on the nickel plated blade are a bit of a theme on this particular range, They were often sold alongside those black scabbard Sabres with 'India' etched into the blades. They may have been available in India to those who travel, they were certainly available in the Uk, although for every one of the less common types there seem to have been about a hundred lion-kukris sold in various sizes. So surviving examples of types such as this are not common anymore. I've seen two of three like this one in the last few years while I've seen over a hundred of the lion-head kukris and prehaps 4 or 5 of the kukri with this type of plated carved/painted hilt in the same time period. I've never seen one of the fish swords again after that shop stopped selling them so presumably not a big seller! Last edited by Atlantia; 18th November 2011 at 01:00 AM.

18th November 2011, 02:54 AM	#8
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the input but I can not help it to be angry at myself and question my ability to tell genuine indo persian weapons from fakes. I thought that I was pretty good at it but alas At least I am smart enough to stay away from all India-engraved blades, lionhead kukries, modern mechanical damascus replicas and the like. Interestingly enough my 2 newest aquisitions (that turned out to be tourist pieces) are said to be made in the 70s-80s. Perhaps the reason I am so easily fooled is because the 80s found me in my pre- and early teens, which is well before I developed interest in collecting and did not have access to the sources that would help me educate myself. Oh well, live and learn... Last edited by Stan S.; 18th November 2011 at 02:49 PM.

17th November 2011, 11:51 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Stan The jambiya in question is mid to late 20th century and looks like a tourist piece to me.

18th November 2011, 12:20 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I think that Stan has already acknowledged this is a 20th century piece, and was trying to determine which region or form of janbiyya which may have influenced or determined the prototype. I think that in many cases of modern items dismissed as 'tourist items' they can also in many cases be elements of native traditional costume which though not actually intended as 'weapons' may still be worn. Obviously huge numbers of items are made intended to be sold as souveniers, but some which give extra attention to traditional detail could plausibly be used as I suggest. Clearly my suggestion will be hotly contested by many collectors, but I think it is a circumstance which certainly may exist. In many cases I think that native people often wear such items knowing they will likely be purchased by 'tourists' upon which they gladly sell it, then repurchase new 'stock'. In this manner, still represent the weapons of the region. Stan, thank you for your keen attention and concern for posting protocol and the courteous manner in which you attend to these matters. Your awareness of necessary perameters is very much appreciated. Nicely done! All best regards, Jim

18th November 2011, 12:58 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	OK guys so Im a romantic !! It sounded like a good story, maybe I could write movies. I still say Stan I like your style !!! Best, Jim

18th November 2011, 08:30 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Stan, dont feel too badly...trust me, everybody here has been through thier own stings!!! The main thing is you learn, and I would like to thank you for being a great sport in sharing the experience. It takes a considerable courage to openly share such fragile and delicate matters here, as can be seen by the huge volume who post as opposed to those who simply view. Most fear they will look silly or be criticized, but as you have shown, that is not the case. Nicely done Stan, All the best, Jim

18th November 2011, 09:20 PM	#13
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Stan, I agree with those above who say that even those who have collected for many years, still get stung sometimes. There are those out there who are turning out extremely good modern made items and asking silly prices for what is, actually only a replica. Personally I detest that sort of thing and if I DO get stung from one of those sources, then there is no way I would ever deal with it again. An old collector friend of mine once said to me that if an item does not look quite right, then it probably isn't......and I am sure he was right about that. Pictures unfortunately can hide many things, and IMHO the only way to be sure, is to physically hold the item in your hand before buying. With internet selling of course it is impossible to do that, BUT you can ask questions thru the system and if a seller has not told the truth, there are usually ways to retrieve your $, provided you keep a "paper trail". Also as DOM said, be very suspect of poor quality photos. Regards Stu

18th November 2011, 11:15 PM	#14
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thank you gentlemen for the kind words of encouragement. I am not afraid to look foolish (sometimes all it takes is a good look in the mirror to know that one can’t hide the truth ). While I may not have been collecting as long and as extensively as some of the members here, I too have had my experiences both with getting duped and finding terrific bargains from uneducated folks who don’t know or don’t care about the value of what they are selling. In fact, I have to admit that I have a few handmade, good quality replicas in my collection that I bought on a whim and never regret doing so. The seller of this dagger did not make any representations in regards to its age other than saying that is is old, which is a relative term. I saw the item and judged it to be from the early 20th century (WW1 era). Few things looked a bit suspicious to me but I took the risk. Despite this alledgedly being a tourist piece it does not appear to be cheaply made, and as such will find its rightful place on my wall. Of course I will be able to better judge what I have once the item reaches me by mail. In any case, my mistake only sets me back $65, so not a tremendous loss and it is still a pretty cool looking dagger. Thanks again to all who replied. I look forward to learning more from this forum and from each of you.