chinese crossbow

CollectingNewbie · 19th October 2006, 07:32 PM

If there is anyone who knows anything about antique chinese weapons, I need some help with a current auction claiming they have a chinese crossbow from early to mid 1800's. If you could pm me I will send the auction listing as we cannot post current listings. Thanks

VANDOO · 20th October 2006, 06:07 AM

THERE WERE EARLY CHINESE CROSSBOWS SOME THAT SHOT MULTIPLE BOLTS. THE CHANCES OF A REAL ONE SHOWING UP ON EBAY THAT IS LOCATED IN HONG KONG OR ANY OTHER PLACE IN CHINA IS VERY UNLIKELY. POST THE AUCTION # WHEN IT IS OVER AND WE WILL SEE WHAT THE OTHER MEMBERS SAY. BUT IF IT IS LOCATED IN THE SHANGHAI,HONG KONG, CHINA AREA I WOULD NOT BID ALSO TAKE A LOOK AT THE SHIPPING CHARGES AS THEY CAN BE A VERY BAD SUPRIZE FROM THOSE AREAS THEY ARE USUALLY MUCH MORE THAN THE ITEM.

Philip · 20th October 2006, 07:58 AM

When you post the auction # after the close, I can check the item out against the material in my reference books. I've also owned a few of these weapons over the years, and will gladly share any info that's relevant.

fenlander · 20th October 2006, 10:50 AM

Cossbows i believe were a Chinese invention. Originally used as a siege device for attacking fortified towns. Aparently around the sixth century BC according to the source I am reading, although this seems too old I think.

Philip · 21st October 2006, 07:09 AM

Archaeological evidence indicates that the crossbow in China remained an individual weapon for centuries. Numerous bronze trigger assemblies have been unearthed from the Zhou through Han Dynasties; these were mass-produced in government factories, and the component parts on many types are interchangeable. The crossbow's evolution into an artillery piece took time, and by the Song Dynasty (AD 960-1279) some very large stationary ones, often utilizing several composite-recurved bows hitched up in tandem, were in common use. Crossbow artillery, along with trebuchets, became obsolete early in the Ming (1368-1644) Dynasty with the gradual improvement of cannon, just as had occurred in Europe. Individually-fired, portable weapons also fell from favor after the 16th cent., when matchlock muskets were introduced via the Portuguese and intermediaries with contacts in the Near East.

fenlander · 21st October 2006, 06:05 PM

Yes this is interesting. Actually amazing they were so advanced so long ago. They also invented the rocket launcher in 1450. Placed a series of rockets onto a wheel barrow and it became the worlds first rocket launcher. It was also mobile!

Almost as effective as Hezbollah except it was in 1450 not 2006!!!!

CollectingNewbie · 21st October 2006, 06:19 PM

HAHAHA, Thanks for all the great information guys, Ive been out of town lately but Ill be sure to post the auction as soon as it ends.

Philip · 22nd October 2006, 08:32 PM

Fenlander,
Yes, the principle for the mobile rocket launchers is the same, although the ones Hezbollah has shoot further and have a bigger bang thanks to black poweder being supplanted by specialized propellants and high explosives in our time.

China did import some technology besides the matchlock about a half-century ago--remarkable is the number of breechloading cannons used by Ming and early Qing artillery units. The technology was brought to Asia by the Portuguese. The Chinese made some BLs that were of impressive size, larger than what Europeans were used to making. Their advantage was faster rate of fire than muzzle loaders, but the downside was lower chamber pressure (and thus shorter range) because combustive gases invariably leaked out between barrel and chamber-piece because there no effective way of sealing the joint completely. [the problem was not solved in Europe, either, until the latter 19th cent.].

What is truly remarkable about Chinese ordnance was the development, late in the middle ages, of some ingenious land and underwater mines, some detonated by timed fuses. The latter used some rather clever detonation devices which were waterproof. Less laudable were chemical weapons which sickened the enemy with noxious fumes or caused boils on their skin.

ausjulius · 23rd October 2006, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenlander

Cossbows i believe were a Chinese invention. Originally used as a siege device for attacking fortified towns. Aparently around the sixth century BC according to the source I am reading, although this seems too old I think.

seems to be a good date, the romans had thema slo,
and from what i recall the sythians were the frist people known to use them and they used them as childrens toys...

many of the siberian natives have had crossbows for untold 1000snds of years , but mostly these were used for making traps , and they used the bow for hunting them selves,

i think the chinese were the first to use the crossbow as a military weapon,,

they made repeating crossbows with poisoned arrows and two man operated magazine fed crossbows with 20 arrow hopper fed magazines, they still used these int he 19th centuary,

fenlander · 25th October 2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Fenlander,

What is truly remarkable about Chinese ordnance was the development, late in the middle ages, of some ingenious land and underwater mines, some detonated by timed fuses. The latter used some rather clever detonation devices which were waterproof. Less laudable were chemical weapons which sickened the enemy with noxious fumes or caused boils on their skin.

Do you know what chemicals were used ?

fenlander · 25th October 2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

seems to be a good date, the romans had thema slo,
and from what i recall the sythians were the frist people known to use them and they used them as childrens toys...

Yes i just checked further, they used crossbows a little earlier than the Romans.
Do you know which poisons they used on their arrows (or should I say bolts) ?
I was told the crossbow was banned in the renaissance by the church. Does anyone know why ? Not that it was any great loss with the English long bow being far more effective.

v

Philip · 25th October 2006, 09:52 PM

For chemical warfare, you'll find mention in the volumes dealing with chemistry in the late Joseph Needham's monumental series SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA, published over several decades by Cambridge University. Needham was painstakingly thorough, his volume on gunpowder (Vol. V, section 7) contains formulae and comparative studies with Western forms of this explosive, along with the weapons using it.

For incendiary and aquatic ordnance, see Ralph D. Sawyer, FIRE AND WATER: THE ART OF INCENDIARY AND AQUATIC WARFARE IN CHINA, Boulder (CO): Westview Books, 2004. There is brief coverage of poisons in there.

Folks, please don't try this stuff at home!!!

19th October 2006, 07:32 PM	#1
CollectingNewbie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 160	chinese crossbow If there is anyone who knows anything about antique chinese weapons, I need some help with a current auction claiming they have a chinese crossbow from early to mid 1800's. If you could pm me I will send the auction listing as we cannot post current listings. Thanks

20th October 2006, 07:58 AM	#3
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	look forward to seeing it When you post the auction # after the close, I can check the item out against the material in my reference books. I've also owned a few of these weapons over the years, and will gladly share any info that's relevant.

20th October 2006, 10:50 AM	#4
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	crossbows Chinese invention ???? Cossbows i believe were a Chinese invention. Originally used as a siege device for attacking fortified towns. Aparently around the sixth century BC according to the source I am reading, although this seems too old I think.

21st October 2006, 07:09 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	invention Archaeological evidence indicates that the crossbow in China remained an individual weapon for centuries. Numerous bronze trigger assemblies have been unearthed from the Zhou through Han Dynasties; these were mass-produced in government factories, and the component parts on many types are interchangeable. The crossbow's evolution into an artillery piece took time, and by the Song Dynasty (AD 960-1279) some very large stationary ones, often utilizing several composite-recurved bows hitched up in tandem, were in common use. Crossbow artillery, along with trebuchets, became obsolete early in the Ming (1368-1644) Dynasty with the gradual improvement of cannon, just as had occurred in Europe. Individually-fired, portable weapons also fell from favor after the 16th cent., when matchlock muskets were introduced via the Portuguese and intermediaries with contacts in the Near East.

21st October 2006, 06:05 PM	#6
fenlander Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 62	interesting Yes this is interesting. Actually amazing they were so advanced so long ago. They also invented the rocket launcher in 1450. Placed a series of rockets onto a wheel barrow and it became the worlds first rocket launcher. It was also mobile! Almost as effective as Hezbollah except it was in 1450 not 2006!!!!

20th October 2006, 06:07 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE WERE EARLY CHINESE CROSSBOWS SOME THAT SHOT MULTIPLE BOLTS. THE CHANCES OF A REAL ONE SHOWING UP ON EBAY THAT IS LOCATED IN HONG KONG OR ANY OTHER PLACE IN CHINA IS VERY UNLIKELY. POST THE AUCTION # WHEN IT IS OVER AND WE WILL SEE WHAT THE OTHER MEMBERS SAY. BUT IF IT IS LOCATED IN THE SHANGHAI,HONG KONG, CHINA AREA I WOULD NOT BID ALSO TAKE A LOOK AT THE SHIPPING CHARGES AS THEY CAN BE A VERY BAD SUPRIZE FROM THOSE AREAS THEY ARE USUALLY MUCH MORE THAN THE ITEM.

21st October 2006, 06:19 PM	#7
CollectingNewbie Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 160	HAHAHA, Thanks for all the great information guys, Ive been out of town lately but Ill be sure to post the auction as soon as it ends.

22nd October 2006, 08:32 PM	#8
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	explosive-activated weapons Fenlander, Yes, the principle for the mobile rocket launchers is the same, although the ones Hezbollah has shoot further and have a bigger bang thanks to black poweder being supplanted by specialized propellants and high explosives in our time. China did import some technology besides the matchlock about a half-century ago--remarkable is the number of breechloading cannons used by Ming and early Qing artillery units. The technology was brought to Asia by the Portuguese. The Chinese made some BLs that were of impressive size, larger than what Europeans were used to making. Their advantage was faster rate of fire than muzzle loaders, but the downside was lower chamber pressure (and thus shorter range) because combustive gases invariably leaked out between barrel and chamber-piece because there no effective way of sealing the joint completely. [the problem was not solved in Europe, either, until the latter 19th cent.]. What is truly remarkable about Chinese ordnance was the development, late in the middle ages, of some ingenious land and underwater mines, some detonated by timed fuses. The latter used some rather clever detonation devices which were waterproof. Less laudable were chemical weapons which sickened the enemy with noxious fumes or caused boils on their skin.

25th October 2006, 09:52 PM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	references on chemical and explosive ordnance For chemical warfare, you'll find mention in the volumes dealing with chemistry in the late Joseph Needham's monumental series SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA, published over several decades by Cambridge University. Needham was painstakingly thorough, his volume on gunpowder (Vol. V, section 7) contains formulae and comparative studies with Western forms of this explosive, along with the weapons using it. For incendiary and aquatic ordnance, see Ralph D. Sawyer, FIRE AND WATER: THE ART OF INCENDIARY AND AQUATIC WARFARE IN CHINA, Boulder (CO): Westview Books, 2004. There is brief coverage of poisons in there. Folks, please don't try this stuff at home!!!