Tulwar Inscription

[Norman McCormick]

Hello,
I have posted this item on several other forums without success and was wondering if anyone here can help with the inscription on this Tulwar.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
I'm glad you have decided to post here. Your tulwar seems to have a most interesting blade, and I cant recall ever seeing a blade with this linear vegetal motif along the back. Perhaps you might show the entire sword so we can see the entire blade profile and the hilt. These sometimes present clues as to the possible provenance of the sword, though admittedly, with Indian swords, especially tulwars it is difficult if even possible.

While hoping that our friend Olikara might offer insight on the characters inscribed in the blade, I would suggest they might be Urdu numerics, though I clearly am no linguist. The circle over three dots may represent the sun and the three dots, the trimurti, a numeric sequence key in symbolism and markings in many cultures. In the meantime, I look forward to full view of the weapon.

All best regards,
Jim

[olikara]

Norman,

This is definitely not any of Indias Devnagairi related scripts i.e. languages spoken across the swathe of Hindu India's Northern, Western and Central provinces.

They look to me more like symbols.


Olikara

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Olikara! Now that we know the characters are not from any of India's alphabets, we need to think of what kind of symbols these might be. As I noted, the circle and three dots may represent sun and the trimurti...but in alignment with what? as they seem strategically aligned with the 'symbols'.

All very best regards,
Jim

[olikara]

Jim,
Why I think they may be symbolic or may be just another armoury mark(Jens can help here) is because if you notice the inscriptions you only see the fish hook type character all over.

Either singly or one after another or reversed.

Yes the circular symbol with the 3 dots around should in all probability represent the 'Trimurthi' trinity. And then it would give ownership of the sword/blade to a Hindu rather than a Muslim.

Nidhi

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you for your confidence in my knowledge Olikara.

Although I have a feeling that I have seen something like this before, I can’t help, and unfortunately I don’t remember where I have seen it, only that it is years ago. I think the blade should be turned 180° - like this.

It seems like a nice blade, and like Jim, I am looking forward to see the whole sword.

[Norman McCormick]

Hello,
Here are some more photographs as requested. Length 37 inches overall, blade 32 1/2 inches. The engraving is continuous for 19 inches and is on the spine of the blade as well as the top fuller on both sides. Will try and get some better photos if needed. Many thanks for your time and interest.
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Nidhi! That makes sense that it might be an arsenal marking as well. It seems to recall, though obviously not the same, the punched dot script from the Bikaneer armoury. With the trimurthi component established, and of course the Hindu association, possibly this would be a Rajput weapon. What do you think Jens?

Norman, could we see the rest of the sword?

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Jim,

From what we have seen of the blade, it looks nice, but I can’t from what we have seen, start guessing from where in India it is.

I can’t say that it is not an armoury mark, as I don’t know, but to me it is strange as the armoury marks normally consists of letters and numerals, or maybe sometimes of a mark, like, maybe, the katar (if this is an armoury mark) or some other mark. What bothers me is, that most of the armoury marks I have seen use numbers, so they must have had quite a good check on the weapons in the armoury, so why, all of a sudden, use a marking, which does not fit in any of the Indian languages that we know of?

Jens

[spiral]

It reminds me of script marks ive seen on some old Afghan weapons.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Norman,
Has any of the discussion so far been of any interest?
Perhaps your participation could help us learn something from this weapon which has of course interested us.

I agree Jens, the armoury markings would typically be with numbers and as has been noted by Olikara, these characters do not correspond with Indian alphabets he is aware of.
The characters inverted as you have suggested make the circle and three dots reminiscent of a paw print ( much in mind after nature trails here in Arizona .

Spiral, do you have any examples of this Afghan script? What type weapons does it occur on?

All best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hello,
Sorry for the delay but I posted more photos as soon as asked but so far nothing has happened. I keep getting a message saying I'm not authorised to do so despite registering some time ago. I have e-mailed the forum but so far no answer.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. No idea if this message will appear.

[Lee]

Welcome, Norman.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people whose idea of doing business on the internet is to spam forums like these with ads for dubious products and services. In order to prevent the membership from being exposed to this refuse, we have had to implement a policy of putting new member's posts into a moderation queue where such ads can be killed before they appear. The moderators are all unpaid volunteers without a duty schedule and sometimes it can be a while before waiting posts get reviewed and cleared. You have now been promoted to allow instant posting.

Sadly, things just seem to keep getting worse. Recently, someone used the PM function to spam their e-book to every member. In the past, we had allowed unconfirmed members to send PMs, as a long time lurker might wish to inquire about an item in the swap forum. The ability to send PMs is now limited to confirmed members.

But, if we did not have these pre-emptive measures in place, these forums and your PM box would be packed with offers for amazing pharmaceuticals of dubious origin and the like.

[Norman McCormick]

Hello Lee,
Many thanks for the welcome. I was getting rather concerned that members who had replied to this post would think that I was disinterested or rude by not replying to their questions. This is, I hope, now evident that this is not the case. My original post appeared very quickly but subsequent replies seem to have got stuck in a queue, I appreciate fully the need for caution with regard to new recruits and I hope those who did reply to my question understand the confusion. I have a few more bits and pieces which I think will be of interest to members and look forward to posting these in the future. Many thanks to those who have taken an interest in this post and I look forward to, hopefully, getting to the bottom of this mystery.
Regards,
Norman.

[spiral]

Glad you got that sorted Norman Nice sword.

I have a bayonet with similar script Jim, Ill take a photo, I belive my bayonet is inscribed in a form of Dari.

Heres the scribed form of it although mine is inscibed in a squarer more angular fashion.

Not certan but this sword inscription reminds me of some of it.

I have noticed Afghan swords have that rivet as well although I dont know howe common it was elswhere.


Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
I'm really glad to see you posting here, and I'm glad you brought your interesting tulwar to us for discussion. I regret any difficulties encountered and am glad its resolved! I'm hoping you'll stay with us, and very much look forward to seeing the other items you mentioned as well.

Thank you for showing us the entire weapon, which does remind me in seeing it overall, of tulwars which seem likely of far northern borders, close to Afghanistan. Spirals comment on having seen similar script on old Afghan weapons seems of course to have been very much on target, now that I see the sword. His comment on the centrally placed rivet in the chowk recalling Afghan swords is equally well placed (see 'good news, bad news tulwar').
The scabbard with heavy chape component and overall appearance seems Afghan, and further suggests tulwars which quite likely diffused from Northwest Frontier regions into Afghanistan. Although many of the weapons of Afghanistan are distinctly recognized, such as the paluoar, the Khyber knife, the lohar ...there is a diversity of weapons from congruent regions also such as the tulwars as noted, shashkas and developed weapons of British influence at the end of the 19th century.

Spiral, thank you for including that script, it does seem that the tribal languages of these regions might reveal script similar to the marks on Norman's tulwar. Any thoughts on the floral motif along the blade? In looking at the circle and three dots, could this have to do with the 'cintamani' often appearing in Central Asian motif? I know sometimes it is three dots with lines below suggesting tiger stripes, but maybe this has some association?

Lee, thank you for the explanation concerning the technical issues,
and Norman thank you again for your patience!

All very best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Jim, the only floral Afghan work I can tottaly recall is on a Tribal Afghan kukri scabbard i have. Cant recall it on a blade. Think I have seen similar on Poulwar scabbards though but have no examples to hand.

Heres the bayonet marking with the above Dari script is a squarer form. {presumably the tools & level of illitracy amongst the armoury workers plays a role in the shaping of the letters.



From this thread.

linky

I have no knowledge of the term 'cintamani' I know the presumed more usual meaning of 3 dots with Hindu weaponary but thats a different subject.

But I also notice 1,2,& 3 dots appear to be used for some linguistic or gramatical meaning in Dari.


i ll see if I already have photos of my Afghan floral scabbard online, if not Ill take & post some.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the additional photo of the script Spiral. The figures you show do have a certain resemblance to those on Norman's example. They seem rather loose and open in similar manner, but I cant say they are the same. Returning to the term 'cintamani' (or chintamani) that I mentioned. This term in what I understand is basically a symbol usually three spots (for leopard) over lines (tiger) and used in textile and other material culture motif in Central Asia. I have seen shamshirs considered from these regions that carried motif of a circle topped by three dots on the hilt, with the explanation that this symbolism reflected tribal pride in Timirud ancestry.

This symbol on the blade seems to concur with regions we are considering for this sword. What is most interesting is that it appears over the central figure in this inscription almost positioned as a diacritic. While obviously I am not a linguist, I suggest this simply as an analogy.

The blade on this tulwar also seems much like Central Asian shamshirs I have seen with heavy blades carrying subtle yelman widening the blade point.

Sure would like to pin that floral/vegetal motif on the back of the blade.

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Hi Jim, yes I can see why its hard to see the resemblance with the script on my bayonet, but I saw a group of I think it was 8 bayonets from Afghanistan {From which I got my particular one.} Some of the script was much more curved & flowing , I got my bayonet for its Mazar al sharrif markings & condition , some of the others had better script & more script.

The script was also on some Afghan Martinis that were imported at the same time.

The usual inscription from Mazar al sharrif weopons when inscribed are Dari according to the fellows who brought them back.


Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

I agree Spiral, that varying degree of literacy and skill would certainly be a factor in the structure of the lettering, and I'm inclined to agree as well that this script seems more like the Dari you note. It is interesting that Dari was from what I understand a Persian based court language spoken in Afghanistan, and this blade seems to be of Persian form. In Egerton (#755, plate XV) there is a shamshir illustrated with remarkably similar blade, including a linear motif which cannot be clearly seen, but since it is a drawn illustration may well be the floral motif seen on Norman's blade. The widened yelman is also present. The shamshir is captioned as from Lahore, but of course since those of prominence in Indian courts favored Persian blades, this may be indicative of a blade form for Afghans in similar station.

It seems these characters in the inscription may be initials or abbreviated wording, name? I still feel the 'cintamani' symbol is intended with the marking to allude to Timurud ancestry, in the manner that certain symbols or marks might accompany someones personal autograph or marking.

Thanks very much Spiral for setting the course on this. Always a great learning experience!

All the best,
Jim

[spiral]

Just lucky I had seen & looked up Dari script.

Yes the various inscriptions do apper to be abbeviated to me as well.

Thankyou Jim Re. the 'cintamani' symbol, {I get a bit single tracked sometimes, when its late!} just done a little research about it & it appears it origin is Buddhist symbolism originaly? [so must have a very old history in Afghanistan. Unless of course Buddhism adopted it from the Afghans?} one of the things I came across this...

"Cintamani are wish-granting jewels and additionally represent wisdom. When depicted in sets of 3, they represent the body, speech and mind of Buddha such as the practitioner may possess. Cintamani are also referred to as the “Thinking Jewel” and symbolize the importance of teaching and as well as the enlightened mind. Pictured here are 6 flaming jewels. 15 flaming jewels are also sometimes seen."

Thought it was fascinating to see once again the merging of these symbols, regions & weapons. Even if the meanings & interpritations get altered by time & place.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Spiral, and your points on the Buddhist ancestry of the symbolism of you cintamani are of course quite well placed. I couldn't agree more on the confluence of religions, traditions and cultures coming together as often seen on the weapons, which reflect these influences. The weapons are indeed in effect 'tapestries of culture' that often subtly carry the histories of the regions in which they are used, and the very reason why ethnographic weapons research is so fascinating.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hello,
Many thanks for your interest and and your time in trying to get an answer to this mystery. Your findings are really interesting and I had no idea the lineage of the sword and decipherment of the inscription would be such a complex affair. I am hoping, of course, that there will be an answer at the end of this particular rainbow but, who knows, nothing is ever as simple as it first appears. Looking forward to further developments.
Regards,
Norman.