Unknow sword

smp · 9th April 2006, 06:50 PM

Hello,

I am looking for information about the following sword, here is pic of the text which was found on the blade. Any information about this language? is welcome

Entire sword

Rick · 9th April 2006, 06:57 PM

Let's see the entire sword please .

ariel · 9th April 2006, 07:10 PM

Looks Chinese to me and quite old.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 07:22 PM

Yes Chinese and cast in one piece, look very close at the script and it becomes obvious that they are not stamped. I think this from a Chinese trading ship.

smp · 9th April 2006, 07:31 PM

So you think the symbols are Chinese? I thougt that the symbols are too rounded(curved?) to be Chinese. Just guessing

Rick · 9th April 2006, 08:56 PM

What makes you guys think that this is not just another faked antique from China ?

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2006, 09:23 PM

This is trying to be something special but the casting is only average, and only a imitator

would cast the script. Also an object of this supposed age and prestige would not have file or grinding marks. I almost forgot the unconvicing patina.

smp · 10th April 2006, 07:56 AM

I added some new pictures if someone interesting of looking them. Trying to save your forum space so did put them here.Big pictures Several MB!

Thanks for dicussions so far.

Tomik · 10th April 2006, 12:19 PM

Looks new to me, I would bet you could find similar onces from ebay.

micas · 10th April 2006, 01:06 PM

I work in China and I've seen a lot of these bronze reproductions everywhere in cities and little rural villages. The variety is astonishing. I've got a couple myself but simply as a reference to how ancient Chinese swords looked like.

I buy these bronze reproduction swords (as opposed to the fantasy swords) for about 5usd each or less.

My advice is never buy bronze objects in China or from China ebayers if it's being sold as an "old", "genuine", "fantastic", "exquisite" piece of history. Nor should you expect to get a real antique sword for 100usd or less.

I can't tell the difference between the bronze swords such as those at the terra cotta warrior exhibits in Xian versus the fake bronzes sold everywhere. I'm certainly no expert but I think it's easier to fake bronzes.

I suspect all the genuine stuff of good quality are already in museums, private Chinese/HK/Taiwan collections and not for sale, or in foreign ownership looted by the Western (British, French, German, US, Russian, Portuguese) and Japanese colonials.

English language material on Chinese sword-making is almost non-existent. Someone should write a good book on the subject - from bronze to steel. I've seen a decent one on development of Chinese archery. I'd like to learn more but don't even know where to start. But it's there in Chinese, I've browsed book stores with intriguing illustrations and seen the real stuff in various museums. Too bad I can't read Chinese.

But who knows, maybe some of the bronze swords being sold in those little rural villages were actually dug up when they were plowing the fields and I passed on some read deals in my travels inside China :-). It's actually not an uncommon event.

smp · 10th April 2006, 02:06 PM

Yes it is true that you can find all kinf of swords from China, most of them probably fake. But i still believe that they dig up some real stuff from fields...will it end to western collectors is another thing..

I bought this sword from Shanghai,China in 2003. It just looked nice soveunier to me and i liked to bargain with that certain shop owner. It was not expensive, only few bucks., after "hard" bargain

I bought it as a fake so if its not fake is only plus.

It´s really interesting to find history of certain object. Well if that is a fake, is it copy of real word?

I think i have to take it to test to university and check whats it made of(100%). Lots of ppl thought its made of copper, dunno then.

micas · 10th April 2006, 02:51 PM

Were you a tourist in China? Did you buy it from Xiangyang market or Shanghai lao jie at YuYuan? Because I hope you didn't pay more than 40yuan for it in Shanghai.

smp · 10th April 2006, 03:31 PM

I was studying in Shanghai Uni for a while. I don´t remember or even know whrere i did buy it

we were walking around the areas and found it. I dont remember exact price i paid, but it was like few €. nothing really

micas · 10th April 2006, 03:49 PM

Well it's strange that the obvious thing to do if you bought it in China would be to ask your Chinese friends (since you were a student) instead of asking this question at an English language sword forum as if being totally clueless of its origin? And having been a student in China, you should be able to recognize if its Chinese characters or not. Something is not right.

not2sharp · 10th April 2006, 04:00 PM

All else aside; wouldn't the presence of verdigris indicate a sword of recent manufacture. Were this to be an old sword, the accumulated patina would protect against that sort of decomposition.

"Until the 19th century, verdigris was the most vibrant green pigment available and frequently used in painting. However, its lightfastness and air resistance is very low: in presence of light and air green verdigris becomes stable brown copper oxide."(Wikipedia)

n2s

VANDOO · 10th April 2006, 04:30 PM

I HAVE A SWORD JUST LIKE YOURS AND HAVE SEEN LOTS OF THEM ON EBAY. THEY ARE INTERESTING DECORATOR ITEMS AND IF YOU CAN GET THEM FOR A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF MONEY ARE COOL SOUVINEERS. UNFORTUNATELY CHINA HAS BECOME INFAMOUS FOR SELLING A $10.00 ITEM FOR .99 BUT THEN CHARGEING YOU $100.00 FOR S&H ON EBAY SO IF I SEE ITS FROM CHINA I JUST MOVE ON AND DON'T BID. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE OLD FORUMS UNDER BRONZE AND FIND SOME POSTS, THERE IS ONE "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" POSTTED 8/07/2001 THAT ADDRESSES THIS. UNFORTUNATELY SOME OF THE PICTURES ARE GONE.

micas · 10th April 2006, 04:33 PM

As I understand it, there are several techniques to create a false patina. One involves burying them in the ground for a year or few; certain soil types accelerate the oxidization process. I've tried to get up close looks at the museum bronzes patina versus the patina on the tourist "antique" bronzes but for the life of me, I can never be certain.

Anyways, this is why I don't try to buy any antique bronzes for over 5usd :-)

smp · 10th April 2006, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micas

Well it's strange that the obvious thing to do if you bought it in China would be to ask your Chinese friends (since you were a student) instead of asking this question at an English language sword forum as if being totally clueless of its origin? And having been a student in China, you should be able to recognize if its Chinese characters or not. Something is not right.

hmm...all this sound strange to me. Am i guilty of something coz i havent chinese friends? Just wanted to know if someone else knows something about this sword. My opinition of 1 months Chinese language experience is that those symbols are not chinese. But this is just guessing.

smp · 10th April 2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I HAVE A SWORD JUST LIKE YOURS AND HAVE SEEN LOTS OF THEM ON EBAY. THEY ARE INTERESTING DECORATOR ITEMS AND IF YOU CAN GET THEM FOR A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF MONEY ARE COOL SOUVINEERS. UNFORTUNATELY CHINA HAS BECOME INFAMOUS FOR SELLING A $10.00 ITEM FOR .99 BUT THEN CHARGEING YOU $100.00 FOR S&H ON EBAY SO IF I SEE ITS FROM CHINA I JUST MOVE ON AND DON'T BID. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE OLD FORUMS UNDER BRONZE AND FIND SOME POSTS, THERE IS ONE "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" POSTTED 8/07/2001 THAT ADDRESSES THIS. UNFORTUNATELY SOME OF THE PICTURES ARE GONE.

Thanks for you information. I will check ebay more carefully...

Mark · 10th April 2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smp

hmm...all this sound strange to me. Am i guilty of something coz i havent chinese friends? Just wanted to know if someone else knows something about this sword. My opinition of 1 months Chinese language experience is that those symbols are not chinese. But this is just guessing.

No, you are not even close to any violation of forum rules or etiquette, smp. I think micas is just the suspicous type. We do sometimes get people posting here "fishing" for just enough information to make an e-bay description of some questionable item sound more convincing, but I am sure that is not what is happening here.

smp · 11th April 2006, 07:48 AM

i see

well now i understand this better...well it is not going to ebay, when all information is avaible and discovered it has probably taken so much time and efforts, that few bucks would not make worth of it

9th April 2006, 06:50 PM	#1
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	Unknow sword Hello, I am looking for information about the following sword, here is pic of the text which was found on the blade. Any information about this language? is welcome Entire sword Last edited by smp; 9th April 2006 at 07:06 PM.

9th April 2006, 08:56 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Curious What makes you guys think that this is not just another faked antique from China ?

10th April 2006, 01:06 PM	#10
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	I work in China and I've seen a lot of these bronze reproductions everywhere in cities and little rural villages. The variety is astonishing. I've got a couple myself but simply as a reference to how ancient Chinese swords looked like. I buy these bronze reproduction swords (as opposed to the fantasy swords) for about 5usd each or less. My advice is never buy bronze objects in China or from China ebayers if it's being sold as an "old", "genuine", "fantastic", "exquisite" piece of history. Nor should you expect to get a real antique sword for 100usd or less. I can't tell the difference between the bronze swords such as those at the terra cotta warrior exhibits in Xian versus the fake bronzes sold everywhere. I'm certainly no expert but I think it's easier to fake bronzes. I suspect all the genuine stuff of good quality are already in museums, private Chinese/HK/Taiwan collections and not for sale, or in foreign ownership looted by the Western (British, French, German, US, Russian, Portuguese) and Japanese colonials. English language material on Chinese sword-making is almost non-existent. Someone should write a good book on the subject - from bronze to steel. I've seen a decent one on development of Chinese archery. I'd like to learn more but don't even know where to start. But it's there in Chinese, I've browsed book stores with intriguing illustrations and seen the real stuff in various museums. Too bad I can't read Chinese. But who knows, maybe some of the bronze swords being sold in those little rural villages were actually dug up when they were plowing the fields and I passed on some read deals in my travels inside China :-). It's actually not an uncommon event. Last edited by micas; 10th April 2006 at 01:36 PM.

9th April 2006, 06:57 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Let's see the entire sword please .

9th April 2006, 07:10 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks Chinese to me and quite old.

9th April 2006, 07:22 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes Chinese and cast in one piece, look very close at the script and it becomes obvious that they are not stamped. I think this from a Chinese trading ship.

9th April 2006, 07:31 PM	#5
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	So you think the symbols are Chinese? I thougt that the symbols are too rounded(curved?) to be Chinese. Just guessing

9th April 2006, 09:23 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	This is trying to be something special but the casting is only average, and only a imitator would cast the script. Also an object of this supposed age and prestige would not have file or grinding marks. I almost forgot the unconvicing patina.

10th April 2006, 07:56 AM	#8
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	I added some new pictures if someone interesting of looking them. Trying to save your forum space so did put them here.Big pictures Several MB! Thanks for dicussions so far.

10th April 2006, 12:19 PM	#9
Tomik Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 7	Looks new to me, I would bet you could find similar onces from ebay.

10th April 2006, 02:06 PM	#11
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	Yes it is true that you can find all kinf of swords from China, most of them probably fake. But i still believe that they dig up some real stuff from fields...will it end to western collectors is another thing.. I bought this sword from Shanghai,China in 2003. It just looked nice soveunier to me and i liked to bargain with that certain shop owner. It was not expensive, only few bucks., after "hard" bargain I bought it as a fake so if its not fake is only plus. It´s really interesting to find history of certain object. Well if that is a fake, is it copy of real word? I think i have to take it to test to university and check whats it made of(100%). Lots of ppl thought its made of copper, dunno then.

10th April 2006, 02:51 PM	#12
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	Were you a tourist in China? Did you buy it from Xiangyang market or Shanghai lao jie at YuYuan? Because I hope you didn't pay more than 40yuan for it in Shanghai.

10th April 2006, 03:31 PM	#13
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	I was studying in Shanghai Uni for a while. I don´t remember or even know whrere i did buy it we were walking around the areas and found it. I dont remember exact price i paid, but it was like few €. nothing really

10th April 2006, 03:49 PM	#14
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	Well it's strange that the obvious thing to do if you bought it in China would be to ask your Chinese friends (since you were a student) instead of asking this question at an English language sword forum as if being totally clueless of its origin? And having been a student in China, you should be able to recognize if its Chinese characters or not. Something is not right.

10th April 2006, 04:00 PM	#15
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	All else aside; wouldn't the presence of verdigris indicate a sword of recent manufacture. Were this to be an old sword, the accumulated patina would protect against that sort of decomposition. "Until the 19th century, verdigris was the most vibrant green pigment available and frequently used in painting. However, its lightfastness and air resistance is very low: in presence of light and air green verdigris becomes stable brown copper oxide."(Wikipedia) n2s

10th April 2006, 04:30 PM	#16
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE A SWORD JUST LIKE YOURS AND HAVE SEEN LOTS OF THEM ON EBAY. THEY ARE INTERESTING DECORATOR ITEMS AND IF YOU CAN GET THEM FOR A REASONABLE AMOUNT OF MONEY ARE COOL SOUVINEERS. UNFORTUNATELY CHINA HAS BECOME INFAMOUS FOR SELLING A $10.00 ITEM FOR .99 BUT THEN CHARGEING YOU $100.00 FOR S&H ON EBAY SO IF I SEE ITS FROM CHINA I JUST MOVE ON AND DON'T BID. YOU CAN SEARCH ON THE OLD FORUMS UNDER BRONZE AND FIND SOME POSTS, THERE IS ONE "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" POSTTED 8/07/2001 THAT ADDRESSES THIS. UNFORTUNATELY SOME OF THE PICTURES ARE GONE.

10th April 2006, 04:33 PM	#17
micas Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 30	As I understand it, there are several techniques to create a false patina. One involves burying them in the ground for a year or few; certain soil types accelerate the oxidization process. I've tried to get up close looks at the museum bronzes patina versus the patina on the tourist "antique" bronzes but for the life of me, I can never be certain. Anyways, this is why I don't try to buy any antique bronzes for over 5usd :-)

11th April 2006, 07:48 AM	#21
smp Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8	i see well now i understand this better...well it is not going to ebay, when all information is avaible and discovered it has probably taken so much time and efforts, that few bucks would not make worth of it