Unknown keris

KLUNGKLUNG · 4th February 2014, 07:13 AM

Hello,

Picked up this keris. Does anyone have an opinon about this keris? Provenance and dapur? The blade has a single fuller almost up to the tip. Pics from the seller.

David · 4th February 2014, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLUNGKLUNG

Provenance and dapur?

Klungklung, provenance is generally considered to be the confirmable history of ownership for an object. I am afraid that is not something anyone here would be able to supply unless they once owned this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2014, 12:52 PM

David, I suspect that Klungkung is not a native speaker of English, and that he perhaps may be an Indonesian.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but if he is Indonesian, he may have turned to Echols and Shadilly for guidance when he was phrasing his post.

Although Echols and Shadilly produced perhaps the most authoritative English/Indonesian dictionary, there are still some words in both languages that do not come into the other language with quite the same meaning and intent as they have in the original language, most especially when that meaning in the original language has both a scholarly and a colloquial usage.

The English word "provenance" is one of these confused words.

E & S give "provenance" as "provenience" for the reference, and "provenience" they give as "asal" and "sumber" in Indonesian.

Asal = "origin"

Sumber = "source"

"provenience" in Miriam-Webster is given as "origin, source"

If we go to Oxford, we learn that "proveniance" is a US variation of "provenance", and Oxford gives the meaning of "provenance" as "place of origin or earliest known history of something"

John Echols was an American, so it is only to be expected that he would base his definitions on Mirriam-Webster, rather than Oxford.

So Klungkung, not being a native speaker of the English language placed his trust in the accuracy of dictionaries, not realising that we as collectors have our own understanding of the word "provenance".

I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

David · 4th February 2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

You are most probably correct here Alan and i am aware that English is not Klungklung's first language. I believe he resides in the Netherlands if i am not mistaken. While Miriam-Webster does indeed give the first definition as "origin, source" collectors of most things are generally more concerned with the second definition, " the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature" as it applies to antiquities. Obviously none of us have been privy to such history.
While i might hazard a guess at origin i believe this might be something of a mix-and-match ensemble. At least the Surakarta hilt seems out of place to me. As to tangguh, i personally would not have a go there and it seems you might be feeling hesitant yourself.

A. G. Maisey · 4th February 2014, 09:10 PM

Yes David, precisely, and this is exactly the problem that can throw a non-native speaker. I have several languages in varying degrees of competence, and I've been tripped up more than once by relying on dictionaries.

As to origin, I have refrained from giving an opinion because I'd like to see more people participating in discussion. In fact, the blade and mendak are pretty obvious, the wrongko and jejeran are subject to relatively strong speculation.

Sajen · 4th February 2014, 09:43 PM

I would place this interesting keris to East Java, I don't think that it mismatched. The wrongko is clearly East Java and I think the blade also. And a Solo hilt isn't very uncommon by a East Java keris in my opnion. Would like to see how the blade fit inside the scabbard. I personally like this keris.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 6th February 2014, 02:28 AM

Well, it seems as if nobody else wishes to comment.

Yes Detlef, I also would be inclined to place this keris as East Jawa/Madura. The wrongko is capu kagok, and that is a common form in Madura, the mendak style is common in Madura. The planar hilt could well be either a Madura or East Jawa hilt, usually the cecekan in the non-Jawa tengah ones is a bit different to ones from the heart country.

Here is the blade in an easier to read orientation.

The references I have for dhapur are all for Surakarta, in my opinion, even if this dhapur exists in one of those pakems, it probably should not be applied to this keris.

KLUNGKLUNG · 6th February 2014, 09:03 AM

Thanks gentlemen,

Agree with both Detlef and Alan that its origin ( yepp, sorry for the mistake but that was what I was aiming at) could be Madura / East-Java because of the mentioned features.
Will show proper pics after receipt of it but it might already be interesting to observe the similarities of my keris compared to a Megantara keris: the fuller in the mid reaching almost towards the very tip is remarkable.
By the way, English is not my native language and 'worse' I am a female collector

David · 6th February 2014, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLUNGKLUNG

By the way, English is not my native language and 'worse' I am a female collector

Ah, well please forgive me then for referring to you as "he" previously. Frankly we need more women around here to keep these boys in line.

A. G. Maisey · 6th February 2014, 09:58 PM

Klungkung, for about 20 years I used to sell keris at Arms Fairs. I used to enjoy this a lot. A two meter table with a dark green cloth cover, a couple of racks of keris together with other sharp pointy things scattered over the table, including knives and blades I'd made myself using spring steel, 01, and damascus.

Because of the fragrant oil that we put on keris blades there was always a nice fragrance around my table, and that fragrance would attract women. While the husbands were off oohing and aahing over AK47's and similar entrancing objects of desire, their wives and girlfriends would surround my table.

I loved those arms fairs.

A couple of women from those days have developed into very perceptive and discerning collectors of the keris. Regrettably, none have become students of the keris, but from a purely collector philosophy these women are as good and often better than any of the male collectors I know.

In understanding the physical form of the keris a fine attention to detail is required. Many women seem to possess this faculty to a higher degree than the majority of men.

There is nothing "worse" about being a lady aficionado of the keris.

4th February 2014, 07:13 AM	#1
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Unknown keris Hello, Picked up this keris. Does anyone have an opinon about this keris? Provenance and dapur? The blade has a single fuller almost up to the tip. Pics from the seller. Attached Images

6th February 2014, 02:28 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Well, it seems as if nobody else wishes to comment. Yes Detlef, I also would be inclined to place this keris as East Jawa/Madura. The wrongko is capu kagok, and that is a common form in Madura, the mendak style is common in Madura. The planar hilt could well be either a Madura or East Jawa hilt, usually the cecekan in the non-Jawa tengah ones is a bit different to ones from the heart country. Here is the blade in an easier to read orientation. The references I have for dhapur are all for Surakarta, in my opinion, even if this dhapur exists in one of those pakems, it probably should not be applied to this keris. Attached Images

6th February 2014, 09:03 AM	#8
KLUNGKLUNG Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 24	Thanks gentlemen, Agree with both Detlef and Alan that its origin ( yepp, sorry for the mistake but that was what I was aiming at) could be Madura / East-Java because of the mentioned features. Will show proper pics after receipt of it but it might already be interesting to observe the similarities of my keris compared to a Megantara keris: the fuller in the mid reaching almost towards the very tip is remarkable. By the way, English is not my native language and 'worse' I am a female collector Attached Images

4th February 2014, 12:52 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	David, I suspect that Klungkung is not a native speaker of English, and that he perhaps may be an Indonesian. Of course, I could be totally wrong, but if he is Indonesian, he may have turned to Echols and Shadilly for guidance when he was phrasing his post. Although Echols and Shadilly produced perhaps the most authoritative English/Indonesian dictionary, there are still some words in both languages that do not come into the other language with quite the same meaning and intent as they have in the original language, most especially when that meaning in the original language has both a scholarly and a colloquial usage. The English word "provenance" is one of these confused words. E & S give "provenance" as "provenience" for the reference, and "provenience" they give as "asal" and "sumber" in Indonesian. Asal = "origin" Sumber = "source" "provenience" in Miriam-Webster is given as "origin, source" If we go to Oxford, we learn that "proveniance" is a US variation of "provenance", and Oxford gives the meaning of "provenance" as "place of origin or earliest known history of something" John Echols was an American, so it is only to be expected that he would base his definitions on Mirriam-Webster, rather than Oxford. So Klungkung, not being a native speaker of the English language placed his trust in the accuracy of dictionaries, not realising that we as collectors have our own understanding of the word "provenance". I believe that what Klungkung would like to hear are opinions on where this keris might have originated. Maybe even a little touch of tangguh might make him happy.

4th February 2014, 09:10 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes David, precisely, and this is exactly the problem that can throw a non-native speaker. I have several languages in varying degrees of competence, and I've been tripped up more than once by relying on dictionaries. As to origin, I have refrained from giving an opinion because I'd like to see more people participating in discussion. In fact, the blade and mendak are pretty obvious, the wrongko and jejeran are subject to relatively strong speculation.

4th February 2014, 09:43 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	I would place this interesting keris to East Java, I don't think that it mismatched. The wrongko is clearly East Java and I think the blade also. And a Solo hilt isn't very uncommon by a East Java keris in my opnion. Would like to see how the blade fit inside the scabbard. I personally like this keris. Regards, Detlef

6th February 2014, 09:58 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Klungkung, for about 20 years I used to sell keris at Arms Fairs. I used to enjoy this a lot. A two meter table with a dark green cloth cover, a couple of racks of keris together with other sharp pointy things scattered over the table, including knives and blades I'd made myself using spring steel, 01, and damascus. Because of the fragrant oil that we put on keris blades there was always a nice fragrance around my table, and that fragrance would attract women. While the husbands were off oohing and aahing over AK47's and similar entrancing objects of desire, their wives and girlfriends would surround my table. I loved those arms fairs. A couple of women from those days have developed into very perceptive and discerning collectors of the keris. Regrettably, none have become students of the keris, but from a purely collector philosophy these women are as good and often better than any of the male collectors I know. In understanding the physical form of the keris a fine attention to detail is required. Many women seem to possess this faculty to a higher degree than the majority of men. There is nothing "worse" about being a lady aficionado of the keris.