Javanese Keris ID

[HughChen]

Hi, all

A friend showed me two Javanese Keris. They are alleged to be from 1900s (I don't know if it's ture). Can you identify them?

Why almost every Keris always be alleged to be from 1900s?

Many old Keris seems to be white but doesn't have too much red rust. Is that a valid method to identify old keris?

Another question, it's said in the process of forging, Keris will be folded 500 times. Is that real?

[David]

Blades look legitimately old. First one could easily be 19th century. The second blade is possibly older.
That's also a very strange hilt on the second blade. I don't think it was originally intended for a keris.

[Rick]

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

[A. G. Maisey]

The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

Hi, Rick， Like this

[HughChen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The method of production used to make most keris blades does indeed produce a large number of layers of material.

Using the most simple method of production, which begins with only 2 pieces of material placed into the forge as a bundle of 2, & then forge welded, the result from that first weld is a billet with 2 layers.

That 2 layer billet is then folded & welded like this:-

2 . 4 . 8 . 16 . 32 . 64 . 128

this is a pretty common progression, at 128 layers the billet is then folded again and a piece of steel that will form the core of the blade is inserted between the two halves of the billet and another weld is taken, the result is then 128 + 128 + 1 = 257 layers.

If the steel that is now the core of the blade was folded in production before insertion into the halved billet, then the number of layers will exceed 257 by the number of layers in the steel.

If the fold & weld process that applies to the material used to enclose the steel core has proceeded past 7 welds, then the layers of material in the blade can be much higher and could run into thousands of layers very easily.

Think you Maisey!

[A. G. Maisey]

Post #1.

the majority of keris that we encounter can be attributed to the 1800's, ie, 19th century, because there were more people who wore keris in the 19th century than in previous periods, thus more keris were made, & because it is closer to our own time, more have survived.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if the strange hilt might be Batak. I've seen a fair number of Batak carvings depicting figures riding upon each other.

The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

[sirek]

Hello HughChen, if you watch this video on youtube then you understand the process a bit. There are more videos on this channel so you can follow the whole process and then you see how much work goes into it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH2PLK4c0uw

[A. G. Maisey]

That's a good video, gives a real good idea of the forge work involved in producing the billet from which a keris is made, but this part of the process, although hot & heavy work, is the easy part, and the part that many makers are happy enough to farm out to somebody else.

Sometimes they supervise the smith & the strikers, sometimes not, just give instructions and pay for the end result.

The really difficult part of making a keris is the cold work, the carving.

I've made a few keris, the longest time it took me to produce a keris blade was 49 man-days, 8 & 10 hour working days.

Of those 49 days, there were 9 days spent on forge work, three men, a smith and two strikers, working for three days.

The balance of the time was spent on carving the keris.

It could have been carved more quickly if I had used electric tools, but I used all traditional tools, not electric.

There really is a lot of work in making a keris.

[sirek]

Hello mr Maisy,
I can only have a lot of respect for this man and woman, I thought I heard somewhere in one of his videos that he was working on it for 3 to 4 months and I rarely see him use anything power tools (although he has a electric forging hammer) everything is traditionally done by hand. It is also hard work for the woman who always has to fetch charcoal and work as a striker. I hope he has a student who can take over this knowledge, It would be a shame if this will be lost, especially considering the age of these people.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The hilt is from a betel crusher from Lombok, see here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=betel

Yup.
That's what I had in mind Sajen.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by HughChen

Hi, Rick， Like this

But it's not Batak work, these hilts are common on Lombok.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's a good video, gives a real good idea of the forge work involved in producing the billet from which a keris is made, but this part of the process, although hot & heavy work, is the easy part, and the part that many makers are happy enough to farm out to somebody else.

Sometimes they supervise the smith & the strikers, sometimes not, just give instructions and pay for the end result.

The really difficult part of making a keris is the cold work, the carving.

I've made a few keris, the longest time it took me to produce a keris blade was 49 man-days, 8 & 10 hour working days.

Of those 49 days, there were 9 days spent on forge work, three men, a smith and two strikers, working for three days.

The balance of the time was spent on carving the keris.

It could have been carved more quickly if I had used electric tools, but I used all traditional tools, not electric.

There really is a lot of work in making a keris.

Hi Alan,

Based on your above example you’ve spent ~20% of the time on forge work and ~80% on carving the keris.

My question is is it the time spent on carving always greater than on forge?

How about for example a keris with simple dhapur (Brojol/Tilam Upih) but with complex pamor (Ron genduru/wengkon)? In this case is the time spent on carving still greater than on forge?

Thank you.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yohan, I can only speak from my own experience & what I have observed.

The 49 man-day example was a complex pamor, & that took three men three days to forge.

I made an adeg pamor, which requires moving the orientation of the layers of pamor into a position where they are at 90 degrees to the blade core, rather than parallel with the blade core, that took maybe half a day or less to move the orientation.

Now if I compare that with how long it took me to carve a sogokan correctly, that was 4 mandays for each blade face.

People using electric tools, and not observing the requisite fine detail to produce quality work can do things quicker, much, much quicker.

But putting all that to one side, in my experience it does take longer to get the cold work done than it takes to get the hot work done.

To me, its a bit funny really, because everybody fixates on the forge work, when in fact that is just hot, heavy, rough work. Even when a complex pamor is done the makers will simply direct the smith & strikers in their work --- except when there are cameras around. I'm speaking in generalities here, there are still makers who do everything themselves, hands on from start to finish.

The cold work requires deep knowledge and unwavering concentration.

[JustYS]

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation Alan.

I guess most of us non Keris makers fixates on forge work is because at first we attracted to the pamor when looking at Keris.

Thanks to you and the forum, we learn that garap should carry much more weight in appraising Keris.

Thank you.

[A. G. Maisey]

Forge work is no longer a common trade, it is active & flashy and no untrained person can understand it, there is fire and sparks and thumping hammers.

How can somebody sitting quietly & making adjustments of a fraction of a millimeter with a jewelers file compete with the magic & mystery of the forge?

Actually Empu Suparman used to prioritise garap in his appraisal of a blade.