1821 Variation for an Indian Officer Circa 1837?

[Cathey]

Nationality: British/Indian?
Overall Length: 39 5/8” inches
Blade length: 34 ¼” inches
Blade widest point: 1 7/16” inches
Inside grip length including ferrule: 4 7/16” inches

Description
1821 Pattern light cavalry Officers sword. Steel mounted, three bar variant hilt, lacking thumb guard (completely fat on off side). Sharkskin covered silver wire bound grip, backpiece with smooth thumb rest and rounded stepped pommel. The 34 ¼ “blade (un sharpened) is etched full length on both sides with large foliate designs including areas of false damask pattern; each side is also etched with a narrow cartouche beginning at approx 7” from the hilt and extending 9”in length, containing what appears to be a varying (different each side) group of Sanskrit characters. Ricasso area on both sides is etched with what appears to be a cross in the St. Andrew's style. Regulation pattern steel scabbard with drag and two loose sling rings.

General Remarks
General appearance of this sword suggests European manufacture, likely special order in the late William IV or early Victorian period for a British officer of East India company irregular cavalry. Notable for the exceptional width and curvature of blade as compared to a British regulation pattern of the same period. Unfortunately, the blade is not signed or marked.

Thank you Gordon Byrnes for assisting with this description.

This is an odd one and I would appreciate any thoughts in relation to its possible provenance and identification of the Sanskrit characters?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Cathey,

I have to say what a superb sword this is. I'm not certain about the script except to say the design resembles decoration on some Ethiopian swords in that it has foliate scrolls etc... If it is of the same manufacture I would suspect German Solingen ... but only as a guess. Perhaps you already have a fair idea? As a wild guess something like 12th Dragoons, Napoleonic.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Cathey]

Hi Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I posted this sword on two other forums in the hope of getting as many thoughts as possible and the general consensus is that the sword is British manufactured for an East India Company officer. The decoration does not conform to Sanskrit and is most likely mock calligraphy. Although it is odd that if this is only decoration that it would be different on both sides. The view at this time is that this is a transitional sword between the 1796 pattern light cavalry and the 1821 pattern and most probably dates as early as 1815. The absence of a thumb guard also strengthens the argument for this being a transition piece.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jim McDougall]

I think this is a cavalry sabre indeed for an officer in one of the units in India during the Raj, however I disagree with the East India Company attribution as well as the idea of being transitional between M1796 and M1821. As far as I know there were no interim versions (certainly such things might be though), but most importantly, these distinct rounded back blades and the prounounced yelman were typical pattern on Prussian M1879, German M1889 and the Saxon M1891 (all illustrated in Wagner, 1967). These type blades are not seen early in the century, though the rounded back blades do occur on a number of early British blades, not with this yelman.

The example discussed elsewhere with similar blade and thought to be transitional with its 'beaked' stirrup hilt of early form is also likely to be a remounted example in Indian service and refurbished with Solingen blade.

It is important to note that many British patterns were still produced for officers and often general issue to other ranks in native Indian regiments long after superceded by new regulation patterns. The M1796 stirrup hilts with the same hatchet point blades were produced as late as 1880s and 90s I believe (I have one by Bourne & Sons) but with smaller hilts and atypical cast metalwork. The M1821 type hilts were produced as 'colonial' style for India in the 1880s as well (the blades were designated by specific lengths to Bengal and Madras in variation) and many units carried these as a form of 'regulation' pattern.

The East India Company effectively ceased in 1857 after the Mutiny, and as it seems the terminus ante quem for these German blades, which this example seems to be is c.1879 (the earliest German pattern with them), this sword must have produced around that time. In my opinion this may be a specially made sword by British contractor for Indian regiment officer using German blade which has been etched with this inscription as well as what appears to be false damascene, beautifully done!

The script may well be Gurmukhi, a Punjabi script used also by the Sikhs as I understand, and quite possibly this may allude to an officer in one of the numerous Sikh regiments in the British Army. While not a linguist of course, there seems to be a possibility this might be a SE Asian script such as Siamese or Burmese if the Punjabi notion is ruled out.

I very much agree, this sword is exciting and outstanding regardless of its later period, one of the most colorful times with British cavalry in my opinion.
I hope this might of some help.

Regarding the indeterminate device and the cross on the blade, it may well be a St. Andrews cross, as many Scottish officers were in India, and as a matter of fact I have seen basket hilts worn by officers in Khyber Pass and environs in photos , and there is also a website noting Scottish presence in India titled 'The Tiger and the Thistle'. This of course relates to early presence in EIC India mostly from southern regions into Bengal, but pertinant just the same.

[Cathey]

Hi Jim

Sorry can’t agree on the latter dating or German maker. I have a number of 1796 and early 1821 patterns (including a William 4th) and a 1796 beaked hilt and agree with the British collectors that this sword dates to 1815-21. The other obvious early indication is the stepped pommel, which by the 1880’s had lost the stepped effect and become more erect and actually appear rather stumpy to me.

Having the advantage of being able to put this one between the 1796 and the William the 4th has further convinced me of the earlier date put forward by a number of British specialist collectors. The other two forums I posted this on where able to provide examples similar to mine and the absence of the thumb ring has also enforced the transitional view point. I have one early German sword in my collection, however this sword really does not appear to have anything in common with those I have seen of German manufacture, so at this stage I remain convinced it is British.

I have attached a picture that includes four of my swords from that era including this one. From the bottom is the 1796 Beaked pommel, 1796 Quill Point, the 1821 being discussed and the 1821 William IV. The William sword still has its thumb guard and the blade is almost straight. I have also attached a picture of an 1821 that dates to the 1880s to demonstrate what I call a stumpy pommel.

The Cross at the Ricasso is interesting though and like you I thought it might have a Scottish connection. I did show the scrip to an Indian chap I work with and he did not believe it was Indian rather that it might be Persian, however I think it is probably just decoration.

Cheers Cathey

[Richard G]

My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that this is a British sword from the 1820's - 1830's. However, the script is a problem. It appears to be decorative only, and for this reason I have doubts it has ever had much to do with the HEIC. The HEIC recruited it's officers from the educated classes in GB and put them through military type colleges in England, for 2 - 4 years , including the study of Indian languages, before they set foot in India. They could not be an officer in an HEIC regiment unless they spoke the lingua franca of that regiment. It seems unlikely an officer would risk ridicule by turning up with gibberish on his sword.
I think it more likely this was made for an officer in a volunteer or miltia unit, possibly one seeking association with a regiment that had Indian traditions, e.g. an Edinburgh unit associating themselves with the Royal Scots (1st Foot) which reurned to Scotland in 1830 after 10 years service in India.

Just my thoughts, and all wrong if this does turn out to be script!

Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Cathey, thank you so much for this reply and especially for the remarkable grouping of examples of these British light cavalry swords. You are clearly a most discerning collector and the weapons you have presented have always been outstanding.
With these you have clearly shown I was quite mistaken on my impressions with these cavalry swords in the early 19th century. I retrieved many of my old notes and had entirely forgotten about the 'quill point' and 'latch back' blades. The term pipeback also is among the semantics in terms describing these. Apparantly in 1994 the late Geoff Worrall wrote an article in Classic Arms & Militaria on these swords with blades like yours, and termed them the 'Waterloo pattern' with officers carrying them c.1812-21.....exactly proving your assessment of a variant in the blades on the stirrup hilt M1796.
Clearly you and Richard are correct in your period classification.

In an article out of Classic Arms & Militaria (Vol.XIV, #2) titled 'The 1796 Light Cavalry Sword", somehow authors name not noted, it states that while the group of swords with these rounded back, pipeback or quill back blades do not present an official pattern, they were quite fashionable in the period just before Waterloo and represent move away from the pure cutting function of the standard 1796 hatchet point blade to a compromise of cut and thrust.

I will note that the rather rare sabre to 10th POW hussars of c.1810 (per Robson) had a blade with raised yelman (latchback) and the 27 swords ordered by the Prince of Wales (I have been told there may be as many as 41) for his officers. These were German blades with false damascene and mystical symbols believed to have been purchased from the cutler Robert Foster around 1798, with the swords hilted by Prosser. Apparantly some of the ' variant' blade 1796s were also mounted by Prosser, who was prominant and handled hilting of swords officially. Since he was primarily involved in mounting etc. his blades seem to have typically come from German sources. Perhaps these interesting blades were indeed German and prototypes for the later German patterns I described. The sources I have do not indicate blades on the earlier examples, nor possible existence of these on the Blucher sabres (1811).

The script remains a conundrum and while it does have a tempting similarity to some of the Naskh form, the characters bear resemblance to a number of these alphabets in Indian languages and dialects, such as Devanagari. It does seem possible that a rather stylized application might have been used to accent the false damascene apparantly popular around the time of the POW blades. It was also noted that acid etching was in place and that on one blade for an officer in India an image of a Mughal temple was included.
I think this also supports the style motif you have suggested.

Thank you for sharing this sword here, and giving us all (especially me a chance to learn more on these early British cavalry swords.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Before this thread drops away I wanted to thank you Richard for your input and Ibrahiim, as always for your support and participation.
Cathey thank you for visiting us here and sharing this interesting sword, but most of all as previously noted, for responding to my post. Hope we will see you again soon.

[Bryce]

G'day guys,

I thought I would resurrect this old thread as I have recently come into possession of an unusual British sword with very similar blade decoration. My sword has a blade which is 80cm long and 3.6cm wide and is recurved similar to a yataghan or sosun pattah. This recurved design provides a sword with a curved edge for cutting and a point which is more inline with the hilt for easier thrusting. This recurved design is very unusual for British swords and I have only ever seen one other from this period which was owned (and allegedly designed) by Lt Col Frederick Cavendish Ponsonby of the 12th Light Dragoons.

My sword has an unusual "mameluke style" hilt while most other examples of these pipe back swords have 1796 style hilts. These British 1796 style swords with pipe back blades and "mystical symbol" and "curling comet/foliage" designs can be dated back to as early as 1812/13. I have a theory that this "comet" design may be related to the great comet of 1811, which was a prominent feature of the European night sky in 1811/12. The comet was thought to have a positive effect on the growth of plants, especially grapes and wine vintages from the years when comets were seen were very sought after. This may explain the foliage designs which are combined with the comet in the decoration of these swords, although foliage is a very common component of most sword decoration from this period.

At least two swords with this decoration can be attributed to officers of the 12th light dragoons.

Ibrahiim, what led you to guess that Cathey's sword may have belonged to an officer of the 12th dragoons?

My sword has been professionally sharpened and came from France leading to the intriguing possibility that it may have been captured in battle, perhaps at Waterloo?

Cheers,
Bryce

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

This sword has an unusual style hilt. I have seen some Dutch mamelukes with similar style hilts, although not exactly the same. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers,
Bryce

[Roland_M]

Here are my two pipe back blades. One is completely from India, the other pattern is a French AN 9 with an ultra high quality non-European blade from Turkey or India.
The AN9 is from very early 19th ct. the Tulwar is unknown, probably somewhere in the 19th ct..

As far as I know the inventors of the pipe back blade are the Ottomans, maybe as the well known Pala-sword.

These blades has been made in Ottoman Empire, India and Europe. They were highly desired in Europe from the early to mid 19th ct..


Roland

[MacCathain]

Just tuned into this thread and saw the two sabre examples in the first few posts on which are etched some unusual characters. I believe these are not a language, per se, but rather what Lhoste and Buigne call "enigmatic symbols" in their book, Armes Blanches (pps 110-113).

The authors describe some theories on the meaning attached to these inscriptions: one is that they are forms of Kabbalistic script, another is that they are astrological or zodiacal in nature. The text includes illustrations of many examples of the script taken from French swords of the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and they bear more than a striking resemblance to the etching on the swords posted in this thread.

Just what sort of mystical properties this script imparted to the swords, and/or their owners, seems to be lost to time. If I get some time, I'll do a full translation of the French text and post it here.

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,

Thank you for your interest in my sword.

Roland, pipe-back blades seem to have first appeared in Britain around 1800 and I agree, the British swordsmiths may have been influenced by T-backed Turkish or Indo-Persian swords. Your tulwar has a blade that wouldn't look out of place on an early 19th century European sword. Your French light cavalry officer sabre was probably wholly manufactured in Solingen, not Turkey or India. I have seen quite a few Solingen manufactured mechanical Damascus blades from this period.

MacCathain, I don't have a copy of Lhoste and Buigne, but I agree, these types of "enigmatic symbols" are not uncommon on European swords from this period, but this particular arrangement of the panel of symbols and curling comet/foliage design seems to be unique to British swords.

Cheers,
Bryce

[Cathey]

Hi Bryce

Love this sword, how do you keep finding the most interesting variations?

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is a picture showing Major-General Richard Hilton with some of his officers. Taken about 15 years before WWII.

[Bryce]

G'day Guys,
Here is another example of false Damascus etching and mystical symbols on a British sword. This is a 10th (or Prince of Wales) Hussars regimental pattern sabre dating from 1808. The blade was probably imported from Solingen in the late 1790's and mounted in England.
Cheers,
Bryce