Interesting dha

[Ian]

This auction just finished and I wonder if one of our Forumites is the new owner.

The knife/sword appears to be from a cut down longer dha/daab blade. There is a ferrule that runs all the way through to the tip, and it appears that the tip has been reworked into a tapered point in the fashion of many Burmese, Thai or Cambodian knives.

The handle is unusual. It has a brass ferrule with some vegetative designs, and an hexagonal horn handle that flairs towards the end. The hilt has a partial tang. The shape of the horn hilt is reminiscent of Malay hilts, and I think it is most likely from southern Thailand.

The scabbard, however, is in a well described Lanna/Shan style and therefore of a northern Thailand origin.

So we appear to have a marriage of conflicting styles, and I would say that the sword/knife and its scabbard did not start their lives together.

I cannot confidently assign the style of vegetative decoration on the ferrule to a particular group. Perhaps someone else can provide some more precise guidance and identify the origin of the changes made to this dha.

Ian.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ian,

The hilt is strange to me, Hmong Vietnam mountain flavour to my eye but the material is equally at home in mainland SEA and looks practical enough for a large knife.

The rest of it looks Burmese to me, the scabbard and its fitting types/design, the low quality repousse white metal and the blade. All typical features of Burmese Kachin swords.

I do not think the blade is recyled as there is a forward curve and the the rest of the features are typical Burmese...as far as pin pointing exact minority/region of Burma I dare not guess.

If I was to throw it out there I would consider it East Burmese Kachin region.

Gavin

[Ian]

Hi Gavin:

Thank you for the comments. Much appreciated.

As to the scabbard with its brass bands. If we consult the Dha Index that Mark Bowditch put together some time ago, we find that the metal banded scabbards on dha are found with Burman and Shan swords. The one Kachin-designated metal-wrapped scabbard is C0052, which is one of mine. I had labeled it Kachin because I found a press photograph of a Kachin leader who carried an identical sword. This was a photograph taken in the late 20th C of a man in a business suit at the head of a Kachin rally. In retrospect, not much evidence for a Kachin origin.

More recent information suggests that the particular sword shown as C0052 is actually of Shan/Lanna manufacture. The polygonal sub-hilt and silver wire decoration on the hilt and scabbard are typical Shan/Lanna work. The woven silver wire handle is not found on Thai swords but is typical for Burmese swords. Thus C0052 is probably Burmese (Shan).

In any case, we don't find the style of metal bands seen on the knife that is the subject of this post on Kachin swords, at least based on the sample shown in the Dha Index. That fits with my personal experience also of examining more than 50 Kachin swords.

As far as full length fullers on dha, these are never seen on Thai swords (according to our friend PUFF who posted that information on this Forum). Nor have I seen them on a Burman sword. They do exist on Kachin dha but are uncommon, and I have only seen them with dha having a wide concave tip.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure this tip has been altered. Some of the seller's pictures show a different hue to the last couple of inches at the tip compared with the rest of the blade. The final version of the tip is not found on Burmese dha and the Thai forms of pointed tip on sword length dha are more rounded and not as tapering as this example.

Ian.

[Battara]

Ah the Dafia is back!

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Battara

Ah the Dafia is back!

Great to see Ian posting again!

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Gavin:

Thank you for the comments. Much appreciated.

As to the scabbard with its brass bands. If we consult the Dha Index that Mark Bowditch put together some time ago, we find that the metal banded scabbards on dha are found with Burman and Shan swords. The one Kachin-designated metal-wrapped scabbard is C0052, which is one of mine. I had labeled it Kachin because I found a press photograph of a Kachin leader who carried an identical sword. This was a photograph taken in the late 20th C of a man in a business suit at the head of a Kachin rally. In retrospect, not much evidence for a Kachin origin.

More recent information suggests that the particular sword shown as C0052 is actually of Shan/Lanna manufacture. The polygonal sub-hilt and silver wire decoration on the hilt and scabbard are typical Shan/Lanna work. The woven silver wire handle is not found on Thai swords but is typical for Burmese swords. Thus C0052 is probably Burmese (Shan).

In any case, we don't find the style of metal bands seen on the knife that is the subject of this post on Kachin swords, at least based on the sample shown in the Dha Index. That fits with my personal experience also of examining more than 50 Kachin swords.

As far as full length fullers on dha, these are never seen on Thai swords (according to our friend PUFF who posted that information on this Forum). Nor have I seen them on a Burman sword. They do exist on Kachin dha but are uncommon, and I have only seen them with dha having a wide concave tip.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure this tip has been altered. Some of the seller's pictures show a different hue to the last couple of inches at the tip compared with the rest of the blade. The final version of the tip is not found on Burmese dha and the Thai forms of pointed tip on sword length dha are more rounded and not as tapering as this example.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

I could count 200+ such scabbards with these bands on Burmese and Burmese Kachin swords in the years passed and still a half dozen passed every month or two. The blades in my opinion are a shadow of their older brothers...still usable, of the same style but not of the same quality in construction or finish.
I am sure the site you refer to alludes to Kachin use for a number of these Burmese types with Kachin style blades.
These types shown and those with the simple brass or white metal bands are all being what I consider a modern production, late & post colonialism, WWII and also a production continued today in Yunnan

I personally consider these bands on the scabbard from the 30/40’s through to now and most being out of the UK, no doubt bought home by visitors hungry for trophies. Being a current UK sale too adds a little weight to it.

One could contact Alex Tsu to view privately his photos from the 1980s of Burmese Kachan and Shan swords being manufactured in Yunnan…many different types of Dha and Tibetan daggers for export. I’d say it is one of these items and as modern items go, the sky is the limit as to what is done for the market place.

I am confused about your reference to C0052 though, its visual appearance doesn’t have any relevance to the initial piece you place up for discussion…please help me here?? You reference Shan/Lanna, would it not be more correct to say Shan alone or Thai Shan as Lanna was a kingdom that did not exist beyond the end of the 18th century and the knife is not of that age.

Gavin

[Ian]

Gavin:

Part of the purpose in putting together the Dha Index/Archive was to give people a sense of styles that developed over a period of time. That site indicates that, in a traditional sense, the use of metal bands was essentially a Burman and Shan trait. Extensive covering of scabbards with silver on distinguished pieces was also found in central Thailand following the conquest of Laos and the bringing of Lao craftsmen to the capital region. These imported Lao produced the long handled daab of that period.

That's the basic history as best we have been able to define it.

Traditionally, there is little or no evidence to suggest that Kachin sword dha had extensive use of metal bands. The occasional brass band to support the toe of the scabbard, but not much else. And I would say that generalization held until at least the mid-20th C. Since then, and especially the last 20 years, there has been diffusion of styles to some degree throughout the SE Asia region. Tourism and greater mobility have no doubt contributed. However, I have yet to see extensive banding of Kachin dha with metal strips. If you have evidence of this, please post the pictures here so we can update our information. If possible, please provide documented pieces that are clearly not a marriage of a sword from here and a scabbard from there. Bazaar/store shots are especially helpful in this regard.

As far as the Shan and Lanna designations, these are used somewhat interchangeably. As you know, the Shan (Tai) are found in Burma, northern Thailand and southern Yunnan. For the styles of Shan daab traditionally found in northern Thailand, the term Shan/Lanna has been used by some. This helps distinguish from the more recent daab produced in that region (and elsewhere) that appear so commonly on the market today.

There is an old thread devoted to Contemporary Thai Swords (under Classic Threads) that showed several of these more recent varieties, and can be found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001291.html

Returning to the item under discussion, if we look at the bands on the scabbard, the two end ones show some scalloping to the inner margins. IMO this is fairly typical of Shan work. Sometimes these are rings or more elaborate scroll work, but the appearance is consistent with other Shan pieces I have seen from northern Thailand. I don't think it is necessary to invoke a Kachin origin when there is a simpler and more likely explanation.

As for the rest of this piece, I still see a Malay influence to the shape of the horn hilt. The blade still strikes me as a cut down daab that has been converted to a long knife/short sword.

Seems we will have to respectfully disagree on this one.

Regards,

Ian.

[Ian]

Just to highlight the ambiguity that exists between designating dha as "Kachin" or "Shan," consider this example that has extensive silver work on the hilt and scabbard.

The blade is clearly in the straight, narrow, square-ended style that we associate with the Kachin and it has a characteristic Burmese hilt with the symmetrical silver ferrules flanking a silver wire mesh central section. Ten years ago, I would not have disagreed with anyone who called this a Kachin dha. But I don't think that is the correct designation today.

Instead, I would call it a Burmese (Shan) dha made in the Kachin style. Why Shan? Because of the silver decorations on the scabbard, which are very similar in style to the decorations on sword C0052 in the Dha Index. Note particularly on the one shown here the UUUUUUU wire design on the silver ferrules of the hilt which is also seen on the top and bottom pieces of the scabbard in the pictures below. The sword and scabbard came from the same place and I have no doubt that they are original because the sword fits perfectly in this scabbard. An excellent example of Shan work IMO.

[Ian]

And for comparison with the last example I posted, here are the pictures of my silver covered dha that appear on the Dha Research Index. Note the similarities in silver work on the scabbards, and again the UUUUUUU shapes in silver wire work that seems so typical of Shan work. The hilt on this one is what I have called Shan/Lanna, except for the wire mesh hilt which is indicative of Burmese influence.

Again the fit of the sword in the scabbard is perfect and another fine example of Shan work.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Ian,

I should make my position with this knife in the original post clearer as the use of the Kachin has clouded the conversation about it somewhat.

Firstly the age of the dha in question should be looked at, it is modern. I quantified modern previously and I don’t think I need to repeat modern throughout the points I make below as the whole knife is of modern times.

The dha knife must then be looked at in modern context as there is nothing antique about it and it is too far removed from antiquity to draw too many parallels other than what is at face value.

The specific, plain brass and white type of banding in this style and placing on the scabbard is Burman. They are seen on the longer Burman sabre type and are seen on the longer Burman kachin blade type.

The blade type, starting at the root is a Burman blade. The spine and fuller speak volumes in this respect.

The tip we can go back and forward on many times but my opinion is that it was made this way.

If it was a shortened sword it most certainly was reforged rather than reshaped and broadened in the belly and a piercing tip added.

I would consider the tip and handle as a smiths or owners personal preference rather than a modern sub category.

I think it is too far a step to consider Malay for the handle when the Hmong are so much closer in culture and location.

Personally, the Lanna attribution is not added value, it only clouds the waters when speaking outside of the Lanna kingdom time frame. Trying to be so exact on one hand but not on such a critical aspect of classification is amiss.

It would be much more appropriate to express, especially when discussing research of an item to name the culture and locality as you did. Referencing Lanna can be done when referring to a specific item or design from the period.

Back to the scabbard fittings manufacture and the specific flat crude modern type that they are.

These are 95% on the time found on Burman proper swords and Burman Kachin blades types mentioned above.

To follow a massively consistent aspect surrounding the scabbard fitting type having such a relationship with these two Burman blade types it would be fair to say the knife discussed is Burman with specific cultural influence added in the hilt and blade tip. The types are so plentiful in the market place and in collections that it must have been quite a manufacturing centre to pump out so many.

The Shan aspects and sword presented should be held for a separate discussion as it is from another time period altogether.



Gavin

[Nathaniel]

Interesting knife, Ian

The blade, style of scabbard bands and ferrule remind me of this dha I have

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6349

[Gavin Nugent]

The hilt form is still made and used in Modern day Laos, see the image below.

I am unaware of the specific region these were seen in but in relation to the original item posted, perhaps, as a random stab in the dark, Akha made/influence in Burma with old Hmong influence to the hilt. I see there is well documented modern Akha Kachin relationships in these borders too.