unusual keris

[satsujinken]

Hi

this one is from my private collection. Got this keris around 7 - 8 years ago, almost for free, after the previous owner died and his son no longer wanted to keep one

eyes can be deceiving, so is with this particular keris

this one is rather small, only about 30 cm in overall length with balinese dress, specially made for this blade - perfectly fit

what do you think ?


Donny

[satsujinken]

closer look

and why do I think this one is unique, because eyes can be deceiving

you can look closely and you'll find nothing unusual, just plain old keris in not so good quality

but this one, most probably THE BLADE was made from WOOD, not metal. It is very light, and by light I mean very light wood. You will be surprised when you see it and then held it personally

now the story becoming murky, as the previous owner's son only said this was one of the pusaka owned by his late father and specially cared, and even oiled regularly

why making a keris from wood ? and why bother masking it to look like a metal ? spiritual reasons ?

why wasting effort to make specific dress for it ? why care for it if it's just a "toy"

any comments ?

Donny

[Jean]

Hello Donny,
The dress is Madurese and probably recent, not Balinese? Astonishing wooden blade!
Regards

[Rafngard]

I think "The World of the Javanese Keris" mentions something about dancers using keris made from leather. Perhaps this is related?

Thanks,
Leif

[David]

Yes, i would agree with Jean that the dress is rather low end and recent Madura dress. This is the kind of dress most often found on replica keris sold in import stores around the world and probably in local markets for tourist. However, those usually have cast iron blades, not wood.
Since this was kept as a treasured item i am inclined to lean toward Leif's suggestion that this object may have been a theatre prop that perhaps belonged to someone in the family of this person you received it from, but i wouldn't place that dress older than the 1960s or 70s. Of course the "blade" could be older than that, i suppose, but suspect this object isn't quite as old as you think it might be. It would not seem all that unusual to consider such an object to be a family pusaka if your grandfather (or grandmother) was an accomplished dancer or deep into wayang and had passed this down to the father and then the son.

[satsujinken]

thanks for the input

I will try to contact my friend (this keris was one of his father's pusaka, before he passed away) to gather more stories

and after some discussion with couple of friends yesterday, they suggest me to try to put it into water .... see if it's really floats. I strongly believed it will

will update the info, soon

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

I think "The World of the Javanese Keris" mentions something about dancers using keris made from leather. Perhaps this is related?

Thanks,
Leif

leather ?? hmmm ... I don't think it's leather, wood is the most probable

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

leather ?? hmmm ... I don't think it's leather, wood is the most probable

Right, sorry. To be clear, I do not doubt that it is wood.
My thought was that if we have one cultural context for a non-metal keris, then two is at least possible. I thought maybe it was related, but not the same.

That said, hey, if one person made a prop from leather, why couldn't another make one from wood?

Thanks,
Leif

[David]

Originally Posted by Rafngard

My thought was that if we have one cultural context for a non-metal keris, then two is at least possible. I thought maybe it was related, but not the same.

That said, hey, if one person made a prop from leather, why couldn't another make one from wood?

Other opinions might vary, but i would argue that there is no such thing as a non-metal keris. The leather objects used for dance and theatrical purposes are not keris, they are, as you have noted, a "prop made from leather". I suspect that this is indeed some kind of prop for theatrical purposes. Again, that does not discount it from being somebody's family pusaka, but it is not a keris IMHO.

[Rafngard]

Originally Posted by David

Other opinions might vary, but i would argue that there is no such thing as a non-metal keris. The leather objects used for dance and theatrical purposes are not keris, they are, as you have noted, a "prop made from leather".

A fair point.
Perhaps a pseudo- or quasi- keris?
Certainly a "keris like object."

Thanks,
Leif

[kai]

Hello David,

Other opinions might vary, but i would argue that there is no such thing as a non-metal keris. The leather objects used for dance and theatrical purposes are not keris, they are, as you have noted, a "prop made from leather". I suspect that this is indeed some kind of prop for theatrical purposes. Again, that does not discount it from being somebody's family pusaka, but it is not a keris IMHO.

No doubt, the intrinsic value/power is based on the iron/steel blade of any keris (noting a few exceptions made from bronze).

However, if a keris performs as a culturally accepted "prop" in a ceremonial setting of the culture, say, a wedding, one might also argue that it is a real keris, isn't it?


Donny, I'd love to hear any updates on its material. If wood, it seems to have received some surface treatment to make it look more like a corroded metal blade; is the gonjo separate or just indicated by an incision? One option would be to use some sandpaper to remove any surface treatment at the end of the pesi to get a glimpse of the base material?

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

However, if a keris performs as a culturally accepted "prop" in a ceremonial setting of the culture, say, a wedding, one might also argue that it is a real keris, isn't it?

Sure Kai, one might argue that. I believe that in a similar discussion of what constitutes a "real" keris Alan once remarked about seeing a cardboard cutout blade used in a wedding serving as a keris. And as we have also discussed on this forum, belief plays an important factor in all things Indonesian, so people are welcome to believe this to be anything they want, i suppose, and who am i to try to dissuade them. However, when you ask me "what do I think" as Donny has here, i believe i will stick to my assessment until further evidence comes along to change my mind. If someone can convincingly explain to me how and why such an item has served in the capacity of a real keris (and for me i believe it would have to go beyond simply serving as a prop for a wedding) then perhaps i can accept it. But i think that the theater use scenario seems more likely in this case. Someone obviously went to some trouble to make the blade appear as metal, something i don't believe would be necessary for this object to pass simply as an article of formal dress in a wedding. So the blade was meant to be seen, unlike the cardboard wedding prop blade Alan once described. Stage use seems a fairly likely venue in that case. Theatre and the Wayang is a very important cultural aspect of Jawa and Bali (and, i assume, Madura). If this were the personal theatre prop of a venerated Wayang dancer i can certainly see it becoming part of the family pusaka and passed down to the next generation. Though i am open to further information i know of no spiritual or magickal reasons why someone would craft a keris out of wood instead of iron.

[Pusaka]

The symbol on the keris is interesting, it is used in Silat to denote a knowledge of ilmu kebatinan.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The symbol on the keris is interesting, it is used in Silat to denote a knowledge of ilmu kebatinan.

I have also seen this symbol on a few actual keris, usually more contemporary pieces or older keris where the added markings are more recent. We should keep in mind that while kebatinan claims ties to ancient knowledge and traditions it is a relatively new philosophical movement beginning sometime around the 1920s and not really gaining any popular foothold until sometime after WWII.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by David

I have also seen this symbol on a few actual keris, usually more contemporary pieces or older keris where the added markings are more recent. We should keep in mind that while kebatinan claims ties to ancient knowledge and traditions it is a relatively new philosophical movement beginning sometime around the 1920s and not really gaining any popular foothold until sometime after WWII.

This symbol relates to Sufi type knowledge and therefore would not pre date the spread of Islam in Indonesia. I believe this specific knowledge has its origins with the Wali Sunan Bonang who then passed it to Sunan Kalijaga.

[A. G. Maisey]

This symbol is the isolated form of the Arabic laam-alif, it is the form used when the letter is written as a single letter and it combines the letters laam and alif.

The second chapter of Al Quran begins with "alif laam mim". The "secret meaning" of alif is Allah, the "secret meaning" of laam is the angel Gabriel, who delivered Al Quran from God to Mohammad, the "secret meaning" of mim is Muhammad.

This is Sufi belief and its use in Jawa probably dates from the time and teachings of Sayyid Hasan ’Ali Al-Husaini, better known in Jawa as Syekh Siti Jenar.

The Arabic alphabet was developed from the old Semitic alphabets, and the letters of the Arabic alphabet have numeric values, so a letter can represent a number or a number can be understood as a letter, which can then represent a word, thus several numbers placed together can represent several words, for instance, 'bismillah al-raham al-rahim' (in the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful) is represented by the number "786", which is the reason that here in Australia we often see vehicle number plates with the number "786" driving around in areas with a heavy Muslim population. In Solo, Central Jawa I have seen several businesses with the number "786" incorporated into the business name.

In one of the Javanese alphabets the letter "dha" represents the number "8", and that in turn can be linked to the Candra Sangkala.

In the keris, where do we find the letter "dha"?

What Hindu symbol is almost identical to "dha"?

So belief depends upon what your religious belief system is:- nothing has only one meaning, and the more meanings, the better.

Why?

Because then only those who are intended to understand a meaning will be permitted to know a meaning.

Do not think for one instant that it is possible to understand everything that we think we can see or hear.

In respect of the laam alif symbol as represented here, I have also seen this symbol used on Indian armour piercing arrow-heads.

[Pusaka]

If I remember correctly it is also a letter of the runic alphabet, I would like to know what its Indian meaning is, why it would be chosen to put on an armour piercings arrow head.

[David]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

If I remember correctly it is also a letter of the runic alphabet....

Well, it's a pretty basic configuration. I would image it is likely to show up as a symbol (letter, number, other) in many different cultures.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep.

https://www.dreamstime.com/photos-im...er-symbol.html

[Pusaka]

In respect to keris though and placing the symbol on the keris in this particular way it has a specific meaning. It is not just a Lam-Alif the third letter is invisible which is the point of the keris which represents the beginning of manifestation. The keris blade is the Nur, the light.

[A. G. Maisey]

Opinions may differ, it depends upon which school one attended.

[mariusgmioc]

After some consideration and careful examination of the photos, I came to doubt that this keris is made of wood.

The mere fact that is very lite does not mean it is wood.
Nothing in its aspect looks like wood.

Moreover, the porous aspect tends to point to a heavily chemically corroded iron. I am not very good at chemistry but I have seen iron tools that after some acid attack turned into some kind of spongy coal that was very fragile and crumbly and this is exactly what I think it happened to this Keris.

[GIO]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

After some consideration and careful examination of the photos, I came to doubt that this keris is made of wood.

The mere fact that is very lite does not mean it is wood.
Nothing in its aspect looks like wood.

Moreover, the porous aspect tends to point to a heavily chemically corroded iron. I am not very good at chemistry but I have seen iron tools that after some acid attack turned into some kind of spongy coal that was very fragile and crumbly and this is exactly what I think it happened to this Keris.

Have you tried with a magnet ?

[satsujinken]

hi all

Thanks for the interest of the blade

1. The blade stick to magnet !! this amazed me ... I used refrigerator ornament magnet and did not expect it to stick but it is !!

2. if you put it carefully on water, it floats !!

now what do I have here ?? getting more confused here


Donny

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

hi all

Thanks for the interest of the blade

1. The blade stick to magnet !! this amazed me ... I used refrigerator ornament magnet and did not expect it to stick but it is !!

2. if you put it carefully on water, it floats !!

now what do I have here ?? getting more confused here


Donny

Hello Donny,

I agree it can be very misleading, but even floating on water doesn't prove anything but that it has a very low density (after all ships are made of steel too and still float on water). The low density is almost certainly the result of its spongy/porous structure, with many microscopic pockets of air.

This is almost certainly the result of heavy acid attack.

Regards,

Marius

[satsujinken]

I have to admit (shame to myself) that I failed to recognize this piece as metal based

the sound when you clink other metallic object to it, the weight, the feel , almost anything about it is not-metallic like

I even almost sure the blade won't stick to magnet, and it does stunned me for awhile to feel it attracted to magnet ....

got me fooled, this one

so, real keris, old and repeated washing and staining corroded the metals and left it porous and spongy ?


Donny

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

so, real keris, old and repeated washing and staining corroded the metals and left it porous and spongy ?

Donny

Hi Donny,

I do not know what exacly caused this keris to end up like this but it definitely isn't repeated washing and staining. There are blades that are hundreds of years old and have seen maybe hundreds of washings and stainings and didn't turn into sponge.

More likely it was an unintentional accident related to some acid treatment. I assume that new blades are artificially aged using acid and this one may have been the result of such a treatment. Maybe there was the wrong acid used, or the wrong concentration, or the blade was left too long to soak.

Regards,

Marius

[Jean]

I cannot believe that an acid-treated iron blade (and looking solid) can float on water unless it is hollow?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jean

I cannot believe that an acid-treated iron blade (and looking solid) can float on water unless it is hollow?

A normally acid treted iron blade won't float but one that has been turned into sponge will most likely float, at least for a while, until the air pockets within its structure get filled with water.

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

A normally acid treted iron blade won't float but one that has been turned into sponge will most likely float, at least for a while, until the air pockets within its structure get filled with water.

the funny thing is the blade is light but not that spongy. It is solid ... trust me it really felt like wood, well - until you put a magnet unto it

too bad we live so far apart ... I am dreaming of a gathering in a room with coffee and lots of blades :P



Donny