another twist-core

[DaveS]

Here is another twist-core i picked up a few years back. This is the
second one i have seen with an offset garuda style pommel. The blade is
19 inches long, 25 inches overall. The pattern is exactly the same on both
sides. No scabbard. Some patterns like this seem to be etched in,while
others seem to look like threads of nickel like an Indo-kris. has anyone ever
figured out how these are done????.......Dave.

[DaveS]

OPPs!!! Posted pommel twice. sorry about that.....Dave

[David]

Originally Posted by DaveS

OPPs!!! Posted pommel twice. sorry about that.....Dave

Fixed…

[Gustav]

[QUOTE=DaveS Some patterns like this seem to be etched in,while
others seem to look like threads of nickel like an Indo-kris. has anyone ever
figured out how these are done????.......Dave.[/QUOTE]

Actually both are the same, the first ones are topographically etched, the other not. Newbold (1839) describes topographical etching of kerisses from Malay Peninsula:

"Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen to the surface; (...)"

Also the Madurese blades are sometimes topographically etched.

[CharlesS]

Note only a fine blade, but a rare hilt style to boot!

Congrats!

[Battara]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Newbold (1839) describes topographical etching of kerisses from Malay Peninsula:

"Place on the blade a mixture of boiled rice, sulphur, and salt beat together, first taking the precaution to cover the edges of the weapon with a thin coat of virgin wax. After this has remained on seven days, the damask will have risen to the surface; (...)"

Actually this makes sense. This is an old technique and is still used today to deeply etch metals.

Oh yes and congratulations (grumble, grumble ). I am so happy for you getting such a nice blade (grumble, grumble ).

[DaveS]

I was fairly sure that the first kind of pattern was done with a deep
acid etch, but the second type with the threads of nickel has to be con-
structed the same way as any type of Indonesian pamor. I can't see that
it could be done any other way.........Dave

[kino]

I really like this Kris, with the not too common to me, a 3 waved blade.
As I understood, a true taluseko

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by DaveS

I was fairly sure that the first kind of pattern was done with a deep
acid etch, but the second type with the threads of nickel has to be con-
structed the same way as any type of Indonesian pamor. I can't see that
it could be done any other way.........Dave

oncemore -

both kinds (actually there is only one kind) are done like a normal Pamor from Indonesia or Malay Peninsula, using iron with some nickel % or some other element, which would react differently with acid.

The difference here is only the method of etching - topographical (like described by Newbold - a strong etch) or a normal one.

[DaveS]

Gustav: A deep topographical acid etch to create a twist pattern is
completly different than a manipulation of a bar of iron and nickel
to create a desired pattern. The twist core kris i posted last week
was done in an entirely different way to get that pattern, then it
was etched to bring that pattern out. A deep etch using acid and
some kind of resist is the same as seen on some swords and
"damascus" gun barrels.........Dave.

[Gustav]

Dave:

the Pamor material used is absolutely the same: two bars on each side of a core, consisting of alternate layers of two different kind of iron. On your other kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17861) the torsion of these bars has a big frequency, there are not many twists & the layers are laying comparatively wide apart, so the Pamor actually looks like a kind of horizontal Pamor after the forging. Deep etch of such kind of Pamor wouldn't make much sense esthetically. On this older example of yours the frequency of torsion is quite small, so the different layers are pressed close together.

Gustav

P.S.

I thought this kris looks familiar and found it with the same kind of discussion: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...4672&highlight

The Pamor on this blade is a real Pamor with a deep etch and not a Pamor faked via etching.

[DaveS]

Gustav: I had forgotten that i had this kris posted earlier. I'm still not
quite convinced that this type of pattern is not simply caused by
a deep acid etch as opposed to a forge-welded technique. The two
just don't seem compatable to me. But that is what make this
collecting so interesting, trying to figure out how something was
done. While collectors may not always agree on certain techniques
of construction, we all agree on the beauty of the end result...Dave.

[Battara]

Actually Dave the 2 are very compatible and were done together.

[DaveS]

Jose: I have used a high magnification lens and examined the valleys made
by the etch. I see no evidence of nickel pamor at the bottom of these
valleys. I can't see how these two techniques are the same if nickel
threads can't be seen at the bottom of these valleys. Somehow i think
we are talking about two different ways that this can be done.
At this point i think i need a bladesmith with experience in making
damascus to maybe explain this.........Dave.

[Battara]

I'm not talking about nickel. What I am saying is that I have seen a style that uses twisted bars like this. Of course bromide and etchant are heavily used in the process.

[David]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Jose: I have used a high magnification lens and examined the valleys made by the etch. I see no evidence of nickel pamor at the bottom of these valleys. I can't see how these two techniques are the same if nickel threads can't be seen at the bottom of these valleys. Somehow i think we are talking about two different ways that this can be done.
At this point i think i need a bladesmith with experience in making damascus to maybe explain this.........Dave.

Dave, you do realize that nickel is not necessary to create a contrasting pamor pattern in keris making, right? Are you familiar with the research conducted by Bennet Bronson on this subject?

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Jose: I have used a high magnification lens and examined the valleys made
by the etch. I see no evidence of nickel pamor at the bottom of these
valleys.

At this point i think i need a bladesmith with experience in making
damascus to maybe explain this.........Dave.

Dave:

I will give it another try and be more explicite, as I see, this question really bothers you.

There are very rare twistcore krisses, where the pattern and welding are so perfectly done you can't tell difference between a pattern created by simple etching or a real pamor at first glance. I very much like your kris, Dave, yet it doesn't belong to this category.

Please take a look to the picture below: the marked area on the left side clearly shows the twisted bar leaving the topographically etched middle fuller. Actually the Pamor here is very clear, despite the polished surface.

The marked area on the right side shows a forging flaw, which is where the twisted bar meets the core. The welding failed here.

I don't understand very well, what do you mean by the sentence:

"I have used a high magnification lens and examined the valleys made
by the etch. I see no evidence of nickel pamor at the bottom of these
valleys."

I understand it like the bottom here is without any pamor activity. I don't recognise these places to a sufficient extent on the pictures, yet these most probably would be the places where the twisted bar has been forged or chiseled or etched through and the core has been exposed.

Actually for this information you don't need a blacksmith, becouse this is ABC if you really are interested in pamor techniques. By chance I have had conversations on the matter of pattern welding with a smith, who is quite well versed in twistcore techniques.

To recapitulate the forging&topographical etching matter: the sentences regarding topographical etching from the book of Newbold are handling exactly this subject. The pattern welding technique with subsequent topographical etching (including wax reserve) absolutely isn't something unusual and rare, not only in Philippines and not only in SEAsia.

Gustav

[DaveS]

Gustav: In your closeup pictures i can now see where the nickel threads
disapper into the deep etch. In fact it is easier to see this in your
pictures than when the kris is in my hand. I now have a bit better
understanding of how this technique could have been done rather
than just guessing. We have something like 15 or so twist-cores
in our collection and when i get the chance i will post some of the
others. Thanks again for being patient with my questions....Dave.

[Spunjer]

Gustav,
Thank you for a very clear explanation on this subject. on this statement though:

There are very rare twistcore krisses, where the pattern and welding are so perfectly done you can't tell difference between a pattern created by simple etching or a real pamor at first glance.

i've attached a couple of twistcore pictures below. is that what you're talking about, or if not, would you happen to have a picture/pictures of it?

kind regards

[Gustav]

Ron,

indeed a very fine example of a twistcore! Iron must be of very good quality to allow such fine texture without any blowholes, caused by impurities and air pockets. The torsion of both bars has to have almost the same frequency to become the pattern almost symmetrical as it is in this case, the welding in areas depicted is very near to perfect.

Becouse of the theme of this thread I thought more of examples, where the central twistcore panel is etched. I have found three examples in the Forum, yet there should be more perhaps:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=798

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1267

yet especially this one:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8641, #19 and 28. Even more impressive in pictures from Ashoka arts.

Actually you (almost) always see the difference between real Pamor and an etched one at the base of blade, and even more in area, where the twisted bar ends. To control a Pamor near the tip of the blade is the most difficult part.

Kind regards,
Gustav