A 'battle weary' Afghan Knife....comments and advice please

katana · 18th October 2007, 06:49 PM

My first Afghan Knife, nice blade, with a 'yataghan' curve approx 25" long and 2" at its widest. Hilt has seen better days, the top (brass ?) strip which covers the 'tang' is missing (which I would like to repair) The grips are horn with no movement the brass sections move slightly.
The scabbard has lost its leather covering, has a number of splits with some loss of wood. The chape is brass and very ornate, interestingly there are different designs on each side.

Could the blade be wootz, there does seem to be some patterning, but I am reluctant to remove the very old patina.

Any advice as to restoration, comments etc, as usual, gratefully received.

ward · 19th October 2007, 03:35 AM

I would doubt it is wootz probaly just layered up you could get some pattern out of it but I don't think it was orginally etched. black or brown goat would be right

BBJW · 19th October 2007, 03:56 PM

I doubt it is wootz as well. A very well used piece that I would just stabilize and leave it alone. Any more and it would lose it's character.

bbjw

katana · 19th October 2007, 08:22 PM

Thank you Ward and BBJW for your replies.

I only mentioned wootz because Stone shows an example which is described as having a watered blade. The patina suggests the possibility of wootz....but then the Khanda I own also suggested the same but a window etch disproved this

The blade had alot of active rust and obviously had been neglected for some time. (It was discovered in a garden shed

) Nevertheless, the edge was still incredibly sharp, suggesting a 'quality blade',

The crude soldering on the hilt seems old, and the lack of finesse suggested a 'running repair'.
Although I like its 'character' I still think replacing the brass strip on the top of the hilt would be an improvement. Perhaps I could find a way to attach it that is not permanent

Thanks for the ID of the leather 'source' I believe goats leather is commonly used for covering books so should be easily available.

The splits in the scabbard could easily be glued, but some portions around the throat of the scabbard are missing.....not certain whether to make 'in fill' pieces (out of timber) and glue them in position. Or to use a wood filler .....either would be hidden by the leather covering.

Is there usually brasswork around the throat of the scabbard ? I have found very few examples for comparison.

I understand a number of Afghan tribes use this weapon, are there tribal differences that could ID the 'source tribe'. Are there any characteristics of these Khyber knives which help to date them?

I apologise for all the questions. but I have very limited info on these

Kind Regards David

BBJW · 21st October 2007, 10:09 PM

Here is one of mine. This was recently brought back from Afghanistan.

bbjw

katana · 21st October 2007, 11:39 PM

Hi BBJW,
thanks, a very nice example, love the hilt

The scabbard fittings (on yours) look to be steel or silver ? It answers my question about metal work on the throat of the scabbard.... it would certainly re-enforce this vunerable area.
Are there features (design, decoration) that could help date and 'tribally' ID Khyber Knives ?

I am very impressed with the cutting ability of these blades ...the 'T' spine greatly strenghens and stiffens the blade but would prevent 'deep' cuts.
It seems that there would be 'techniques' of sword use that were unique to this style of blade ? The stabbing action is obvious...but I wonder how this sword would be used against, say, a Tulwar, or a 'straight' sword.

Pukka Bundook · 22nd October 2007, 03:35 AM

I don't mean to sound trite, but I don't think this knife would be used against a tulwar or straight sword,....just against the wielder of the above!....

Re the cutting ability, In the book Sahib, there are numerous accounts of British soldiers being cut almost in two with these knives,...after the bearer of the knife had been 'run through'. so it would appear that adrenalin, and a sharp knife will work, even if it has a T shaped back!

katana · 22nd October 2007, 03:11 PM

Hi Richard, nice to hear from you

(hows that scabbard coming ?)

There were many battles fought in the Afghan Wars between the British / Indian soldiers and the Afghani Tribesmen. (some links below). Bearing in mind the strategic significance of the Khyber Pass, a lot of conflict has been centred there for centuries. The picture below has the caption "Captain Colin Mackenzie, Madras Army, after his release from captivity". Interestingly he is shown wearing a Khyber Knife, perhaps its popularity spread to some of the British/Indian soldiers ?

http://www.britishbattles.com/first-...kabul-1842.htm

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:F...lnk&cd=3&gl=uk

Jim McDougall · 23rd October 2007, 06:43 AM

Afghan "khyber knives" come in of course many variations, and with the typical diffusion of weaponry it would be more than difficult to assign regional or tribal distinction in them. Whether these were paired against tulwars or other edged weapons is of course speculative, and as always situational. The British during the Raj, adopted all manner of costume and weaponry as a matter of exotica, whether they really understood the proper techniques in use or not, so it is not unusual to see officers wearing such items.

As a cardinal rule of collecting these weapons, for me at least..arrest any active rust or corrosion and leave patination and components static if possible. These are history, and deserve being preserved as is ,as much as possible.

18th October 2007, 06:49 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A 'battle weary' Afghan Knife....comments and advice please My first Afghan Knife, nice blade, with a 'yataghan' curve approx 25" long and 2" at its widest. Hilt has seen better days, the top (brass ?) strip which covers the 'tang' is missing (which I would like to repair) The grips are horn with no movement the brass sections move slightly. The scabbard has lost its leather covering, has a number of splits with some loss of wood. The chape is brass and very ornate, interestingly there are different designs on each side. Could the blade be wootz, there does seem to be some patterning, but I am reluctant to remove the very old patina. Any advice as to restoration, comments etc, as usual, gratefully received. Attached Images

21st October 2007, 10:09 PM	#5
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Here is one of mine. This was recently brought back from Afghanistan. bbjw Attached Images

22nd October 2007, 03:11 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Richard, nice to hear from you (hows that scabbard coming ?) There were many battles fought in the Afghan Wars between the British / Indian soldiers and the Afghani Tribesmen. (some links below). Bearing in mind the strategic significance of the Khyber Pass, a lot of conflict has been centred there for centuries. The picture below has the caption "Captain Colin Mackenzie, Madras Army, after his release from captivity". Interestingly he is shown wearing a Khyber Knife, perhaps its popularity spread to some of the British/Indian soldiers ? http://www.britishbattles.com/first-...kabul-1842.htm http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:F...lnk&cd=3&gl=uk Attached Images Last edited by katana; 22nd October 2007 at 03:55 PM.

19th October 2007, 03:35 AM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I would doubt it is wootz probaly just layered up you could get some pattern out of it but I don't think it was orginally etched. black or brown goat would be right

19th October 2007, 03:56 PM	#3
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	I doubt it is wootz as well. A very well used piece that I would just stabilize and leave it alone. Any more and it would lose it's character. bbjw

19th October 2007, 08:22 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Ward and BBJW for your replies. I only mentioned wootz because Stone shows an example which is described as having a watered blade. The patina suggests the possibility of wootz....but then the Khanda I own also suggested the same but a window etch disproved this The blade had alot of active rust and obviously had been neglected for some time. (It was discovered in a garden shed ) Nevertheless, the edge was still incredibly sharp, suggesting a 'quality blade', The crude soldering on the hilt seems old, and the lack of finesse suggested a 'running repair'. Although I like its 'character' I still think replacing the brass strip on the top of the hilt would be an improvement. Perhaps I could find a way to attach it that is not permanent Thanks for the ID of the leather 'source' I believe goats leather is commonly used for covering books so should be easily available. The splits in the scabbard could easily be glued, but some portions around the throat of the scabbard are missing.....not certain whether to make 'in fill' pieces (out of timber) and glue them in position. Or to use a wood filler .....either would be hidden by the leather covering. Is there usually brasswork around the throat of the scabbard ? I have found very few examples for comparison. I understand a number of Afghan tribes use this weapon, are there tribal differences that could ID the 'source tribe'. Are there any characteristics of these Khyber knives which help to date them? I apologise for all the questions. but I have very limited info on these Kind Regards David

21st October 2007, 11:39 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi BBJW, thanks, a very nice example, love the hilt The scabbard fittings (on yours) look to be steel or silver ? It answers my question about metal work on the throat of the scabbard.... it would certainly re-enforce this vunerable area. Are there features (design, decoration) that could help date and 'tribally' ID Khyber Knives ? I am very impressed with the cutting ability of these blades ...the 'T' spine greatly strenghens and stiffens the blade but would prevent 'deep' cuts. It seems that there would be 'techniques' of sword use that were unique to this style of blade ? The stabbing action is obvious...but I wonder how this sword would be used against, say, a Tulwar, or a 'straight' sword.

22nd October 2007, 03:35 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I don't mean to sound trite, but I don't think this knife would be used against a tulwar or straight sword,....just against the wielder of the above!.... Re the cutting ability, In the book Sahib, there are numerous accounts of British soldiers being cut almost in two with these knives,...after the bearer of the knife had been 'run through'. so it would appear that adrenalin, and a sharp knife will work, even if it has a T shaped back!

23rd October 2007, 06:43 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Afghan "khyber knives" come in of course many variations, and with the typical diffusion of weaponry it would be more than difficult to assign regional or tribal distinction in them. Whether these were paired against tulwars or other edged weapons is of course speculative, and as always situational. The British during the Raj, adopted all manner of costume and weaponry as a matter of exotica, whether they really understood the proper techniques in use or not, so it is not unusual to see officers wearing such items. As a cardinal rule of collecting these weapons, for me at least..arrest any active rust or corrosion and leave patination and components static if possible. These are history, and deserve being preserved as is ,as much as possible.