Sudanese maybe....but how much ??

katana · 22nd January 2010, 03:20 PM

Recently finished on ePray ......quite possibly Sudanese, but to me this looks a little 'touristy' and probably fairly recent.......or am I missing something here ?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Regards David

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colin henshaw · 22nd January 2010, 03:35 PM

Hi David

Its a real thing certainly, quite rare, probably from Darfur or Kordofan.

Regards
Colin

katana · 22nd January 2010, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi David

Its a real thing certainly, quite rare, probably from Darfur or Kordofan.

Regards
Colin

Hi Colin,
I am surprised ... the quality of the workmanship seems 'below par', the 'dot and circle' motif isn't symmetrical.

The blade looks very thin ....with the scribed lines are common to many of the larger touristy blades.

I do really like the form and shape of the hilt, it does have some age ( I must admit that I originally thought it artificially aged with heat applied to encourage cracking)...any idea as to what the hilt is made from ? I still feel that the blade is suspect ....but that is a opinion based on the pictures.

Kind Regards David

colin henshaw · 22nd January 2010, 05:23 PM

The handle must be ivory, I have also seen them with rhino horn hilts...

Regards
Colin

Tim Simmons · 22nd January 2010, 06:39 PM

Workmanship is okay to me, quite nice but damaged thus just a little too expensive. I wish I could get that sort of money for all the chunks of unwanted ivory I find.

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2010, 07:32 PM

Hi David,
An extremely nice and interesting Sudanese short sword, and without further researching seems to correspond to forms from regions in Dunqulah (Dongola) with the shape of blade and outline lines following its profile.
The interesting lunette shape on the pommel of course recalls those on the koummya and reflects the diffusion of influences from trade inroutes from probably Egypt and caravans from the north, northwest.

It does not seem 'touristy' and though inconsistantly fashioned in its motif was probably crafted by local artisans in imitation of other established decoration, and possibly for a local chieftain or tribal leader, ivory was not a rank and file commodity. I would say it is 20th century, with some age, probably 50 or more years, at a cursory estimate.

All the best,
Jim

The circle dot symbol is seen on other examples of this type sword from this region, the ones I have seen have more of a drooping 'T' type pommel. The symbol is seen on motif on other edged weapons hilts from the Saharan regions also.

katana · 23rd January 2010, 08:24 PM

Thank you Gentlemen for all your input

.

When I first saw the pictures of this sword, I believed the hilt to be Ivory...but with such a talismatic, expensive material, I thought more care would be taken with the decoration. Seeing that this was not the case ....and coupled to that my reservations with the blade, I began to question whether this was, indeed, Ivory or 'made' to look ivorine.

I am obviously too suspicious.......ebay can have that effect

Please, has this sword type a name ? Are they more of a ceremonial / status piece ? If so, were they decended from perhaps, a functional version ?

Best Regards
David

colin henshaw · 24th January 2010, 08:17 AM

Hi David

I'm sure these were made to be used, but don't know what the native name would be. They are uncommon relative to other Sudanese edged weapon types.

I've also seen much larger, related specimens with a similar shaped handle, but made of bone and (probably) African blackwood, instead of ivory or rhino horn.

Regards
Colin

katana · 25th January 2010, 12:48 PM

Thanks Colin,
another edged weapon with an unknown name (well at least to collectors). I am hoping that if a member bought the sword...they will start a thread on it.

Regards David

katana · 25th January 2010, 06:27 PM

A similar form on an Anthropology collection site...

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/..._portfolio=yes

22nd January 2010, 03:20 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Sudanese maybe....but how much ?? Recently finished on ePray ......quite possibly Sudanese, but to me this looks a little 'touristy' and probably fairly recent.......or am I missing something here ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT Regards David . Attached Images

22nd January 2010, 07:32 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi David, An extremely nice and interesting Sudanese short sword, and without further researching seems to correspond to forms from regions in Dunqulah (Dongola) with the shape of blade and outline lines following its profile. The interesting lunette shape on the pommel of course recalls those on the koummya and reflects the diffusion of influences from trade inroutes from probably Egypt and caravans from the north, northwest. It does not seem 'touristy' and though inconsistantly fashioned in its motif was probably crafted by local artisans in imitation of other established decoration, and possibly for a local chieftain or tribal leader, ivory was not a rank and file commodity. I would say it is 20th century, with some age, probably 50 or more years, at a cursory estimate. All the best, Jim The circle dot symbol is seen on other examples of this type sword from this region, the ones I have seen have more of a drooping 'T' type pommel. The symbol is seen on motif on other edged weapons hilts from the Saharan regions also. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd January 2010 at 01:58 AM.

22nd January 2010, 03:35 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David Its a real thing certainly, quite rare, probably from Darfur or Kordofan. Regards Colin

22nd January 2010, 05:23 PM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	The handle must be ivory, I have also seen them with rhino horn hilts... Regards Colin

22nd January 2010, 06:39 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Workmanship is okay to me, quite nice but damaged thus just a little too expensive. I wish I could get that sort of money for all the chunks of unwanted ivory I find.

23rd January 2010, 08:24 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thank you Gentlemen for all your input . When I first saw the pictures of this sword, I believed the hilt to be Ivory...but with such a talismatic, expensive material, I thought more care would be taken with the decoration. Seeing that this was not the case ....and coupled to that my reservations with the blade, I began to question whether this was, indeed, Ivory or 'made' to look ivorine. I am obviously too suspicious.......ebay can have that effect Please, has this sword type a name ? Are they more of a ceremonial / status piece ? If so, were they decended from perhaps, a functional version ? Best Regards David

24th January 2010, 08:17 AM	#8
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi David I'm sure these were made to be used, but don't know what the native name would be. They are uncommon relative to other Sudanese edged weapon types. I've also seen much larger, related specimens with a similar shaped handle, but made of bone and (probably) African blackwood, instead of ivory or rhino horn. Regards Colin

25th January 2010, 12:48 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Colin, another edged weapon with an unknown name (well at least to collectors). I am hoping that if a member bought the sword...they will start a thread on it. Regards David

25th January 2010, 06:27 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A similar form on an Anthropology collection site... http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/..._portfolio=yes