And what is this one??

[Oriental-Arms]

It so happens, that also after many years in the business we are surprised by an un identified object. These are always exciting moment. Here is a good example. This one just arrived:



Massive blade 18 inches long, very well made, shallow diamond cross section and very delicately decorated with gold and silver work and very finely etched at its upper part:





Massive elephant ivory grips with forked pommel delicately engraved and painted black in a way reminding the scrimshaw work of sea going people:







Blackened copper scabbard with very well repousse work.

All of very good quality and workmanship. One can find similarities to the Caucassian Qamas, Turkish Yataghans, Greek Daggers, East European swords and the like. The truth is that we don’t have a clue of what is this one.

All suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[Lew]

Seems Greek to me? Whatever it is it is quite nice. This book may help?

http://www.explorecrete.com/traditio...tan-dagger.htm

[kronckew]

grips reminds me a bit of a cretian knife. they can have quite fancy silver scabbards...

edited: should have read above post 1st, great minds think alike i guess

[Oriental-Arms]

I do have the book on Cretan knife, but except for the forked pommel there is nothing there similar to this dagger.
p.s. Forked pommels can also be found on Turkish Bichaq, Russian Shashqas and many other blades, not to mention the endless variety of Yataghans.

[ilias]

In my opinion this is an East European short sword/dagger.The handle has clear European work.About the blade and the scabbard they are from East.Just an opinion.
All the best
Ilias

[Jim McDougall]

Most interesting piece, and in accord with the well placed assessments already suggested, I would add the suggestion that perhaps it might be an Ottoman naval dirk.
In certain ways it seems to recall the Caucasian kindjhal and the Persian Qama in profile, and the cleft pommel indeed present in Caucasian and Bukharen weapons, influences all present in Ottoman forces.

While not specifically comparable to the Cretan or Greek weapons, this gestalt seems present in the diffusion of weapons through the Ottoman Empire as with this presumably early to mid 19th century weapon, perhaps earlier.

I think the ivory, the well placed note concerning scrimshaw, might lend to this being a naval weapon, and the tamga like fluorish in gold may suggest an individual of standing from officer to merchant in sea trade.

[Lee]

The 'wave' pattern seen in the background of the close-ups of the inlays is most interesting. In the upper pictures it seems to fade out beyond the area of the engraving. Is this a surface application or does the pattern appear to go deeper.

[Gavin Nugent]

A nice and interesting piece, congrats.

Firstly Turkish comes to mind when looking at the scabbard and blade, some decorations to the side of the tang and the ivory slabs remind me of some French weapons and decorations found on these weapons and the slabs do remind me on the knives from Crete to some degree as noted above.

If I was going to try to place it in a "box" I too would call it an Ottoman dagger and I would also note it as naval, only in so far as I would "assume" that the lanyard hole in the hilt would not normally be seen on knives used on land and a lanyard would be used to secure the piece in hand and thus keeping it from dropping in to the sea forever.

A question about the construction, the image looking between the slab ends, what is the circle? Are the edges of the tang a continuation of the blade or are the strips of another steel? Where the blade and the slabs meet, is that silver inlay on the blade? I also note that what appears to be silver inlay at this point has a distinct Jambiya feel to it, this might also explain the elephant ivory where walrus was usually prominent? Perhaps Oman/Ottoman is the cross cultural mix present on this wonderful looking piece.

Gav

[Oriental-Arms]

Thanks for all the good observations.

Lee,

The wave pattern is an etched design on the surface. Very well made and it is done only around the gold / silver inlaid areas, not on the entire blade.

Gav,

There is no grip strap. What you see between the grips is the tang (very thick and heavy). The purpose of the hole between the pommel ears is not clear, may be to set a gem stone. The silver inlay below the grip is on the blade.


Alltogether, I do not share the Turkish "feeling". Too massive and thick. Turkish blade weapons alwayes looks lighter to me.

[ariel]

I am a slow thinker, so bear with me.
First of all, it has a kindjal blade and the upper fitting of the scabbard is also in the kindjal mode ( so-called antabka). The blade of the kindjal is very massive and has a pronounced diamond section, i.e. features not very popular in the Caucasus or Turkey proper but frequent all over the Balkans, from Bulgaria to Greece and up north. A lot of Circassians and Daghestanis were exiled by the Russains and settled in the Balkans by the Ottomans.
Eared pommel is self-explanatory: Ottoman Empire. However, design pattern has both Turkish ( tulip flowers) and European motives ( flowing ribbons, chevroned ribbons etc). The lanyard hole in the middle of the handle is peculiar. But kilijes had similar security feature.
Altogether I would venture to place it in the Balkans, the crossroads of Europe and Turkey proper.
Obviously, it is a unique piece, made for a one-time buyer who wanted both Caucasian and Turkish motives for his weapon.
The designs on the blade are painfully familiar, but I just cannot place them ( Alzheimer moment? delusion?)
How does the scabbard look? I guess comparing its designs with those in the recent Elgood's book might be useful.
My 3.5 cents worth.....

[TKV]

turkish influenced item, handle looks balkan, but it's not the fact it was made there. I think it's ottoman empire piece.

[Steve]

I may be able to provide one clue on this. The scrimshaw design inside the hilt ears was used in decorating many Empire design items, such as furntiture, architecture, clothing etc. The Empire design was based on aspects of the Greek and Roman Empires made popular in Europe following Napoleons conquests. I'm not a design expert but I think this is what they call Napoleon III, popular about mid to late 1800's. So I think you may be looking around the Greek area or with an owner who was well travelled.

My only other thought is that the substantial blade without grooves, looks like a naval dirk to me.
Steve

[Jim McDougall]

I think this might be an Ottoman naval dirk

[TKV]

i think, the place where this item was found may help to understand it's origin

Artzi, if it's not top secret, where?

[Oriental-Arms]

Auction in Western Europe.

One more point regarding the scrimshaw decoration:

I consulted with a colleage experineced with scrimshaw (he may post his opinion later today). He claims that scrimshaw art was developed by sea people on whale hunting expeditions. This does not include Turkish, Ottomans Balkans and/or other mediteranean cultures. It is more inclined to North European cultures.

[Jim McDougall]

Looking foward to that. It seems the scrimshaw and the lanyard piercing , which Gav very astutely noted in the hilt, may be key factors in learning more on this unique piece.
Since scrimshaw is primarily an oceanic affectation from Pacific whaling regions and was not recorded before 1817, later entering the Atlantic whaling sphere, it will be fascinating to find the connection to what seems essentially a Meditteranean weapon.

[Norman McCormick]

I have to agree with Steve with regard to the decoration on the hilt, very reminiscent of late 18thC early 19thC Western European, French?, style. The profile of the blade also suggests to me European input. There was plenty of French and British activity in North Africa at this period and maybe more to the point in the Balkan regions along the Turkish frontier and the Ionian Islands the French had a strong presence raising many irregular regiments amongst the locals. The Albanian/Greek Rasak rifle I have has a barrel that was made at the Mutzig Castle Armoury in Strasbourg which suggests a French, possibly Napoleonic period, rifle barrel was 'appropriated' for a local firearm. Mutzig Armoury 1793-1870, Rasak dated 1825. It does not seem too big a leap to suggest the possibility of a French officer/gentleman having a weapon made locally with the resultant cross cultural twist that appears to be present here. Does the method of suspension give any pointer? I think going down the 'scrimshaw' road is a dead end as this decoration does not suggest the type or form of engraving that is generally understood as 'scrimshaw'.
Regards,
Norman.

[Tim Simmons]

Byron and many of his sort from western Europe travelled widely in the Balkan region enjoying a freedom not possible at home. The scabbard and scrimshaw work is very regency and earlier like Robert Adam interiors as already mentioned. Possibly grand tour piece. Very attractive if you like that sort of thing. This ceiling now in the "met" carries all the design features I think.

[broadaxe]

Hello all. I had a chance to examine this magnificent dagger in person. My thoughts: Russian hunting dagger, possibly a presentation piece to nobility.
Explanation: this is a kindjal, basically. The small "eared" pommel is more of russian-type shashka's, rather of yataghan-type. Blade is very thick and heavy, Turkish blades tend to be more practical in their construction, thinner & lighter. The decoration motifs, both the scrimshaw and the embossing on the sheath show strong Rococo period design. Russia of the late 18th century, under the rule of Catherine the Great, saw much influence of French art and philosophy. The period scrimshaw itself is a technique I've seen so far strictly on North American, British, French and Russian artefacts. A highly similar scrimshaw can be seen on late 18th c. guns pictured in the book Masterpieces of Russian Hunting Arms by Jurij Miller. I think the hole in the hilt is not for lanyard but for port-epee of some kind. Worksmanship and quality are superb, anyhow.

[RSWORD]

I agree completely with Russia as a possible origin of this piece. However, the scabbard has been throwing me off. I think it is possibly later and from a different area than the kindjal. Was copper commonly used in Russia as scabbard material? The scabbard by itself seems more Turkish in flavor, other than the top mount with leather loop.

[Dmitry]

This is a European hunting dagger in my opinion, possibly even Russian in origin, as was suggested above. And if I were to be really speculative, I would go with the end of 18th century to the mid-1800s. I am not sure that the rivet heads are original. They look too plain, and don't "work" with the rest of the hilt. Same goes for the brass eyelet.
My $.02

[Gavin Nugent]

Disregard..I was having PC issues..

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

???

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4038

???

[David]

Apparently this piece is now for sale. Thread closed.