Identification makers mark

AHorsa · 7th June 2020, 02:14 PM

Hi there,

in the thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=felddegen
there is an image of some "Felddegen" in the Castle of Ambras. Two of them on the left side show a kruzifix makers mark. Does anyone have information about this mark?

Thanks and best regards
Andreas

Victrix · 10th June 2020, 11:45 AM

Staffan Kinman’s ”European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks” (2015) shows the following with crucifix marks:

Hannes Cleles, Solingen c. 1580-1640
Pedro Hernandez, Toledo @ 1610-1630
Johannes Kohl the Elder, Solingen 1580-1620

The Reiterdegen with crucifix mark is illustrated in Anton Dolloczek’s ”Monographie der k.u.k. österr. ung. blanken und Handfeuerwaffen” (1896).

AHorsa · 15th June 2020, 08:11 PM

Great! Thank you very much Victrix!

Is there written on the illustratoin if the blade is contributed to one of the named makers (and that the blade is earlier zthan 1679)?

Best regards
Andreas

Victrix · 15th June 2020, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Great! Thank you very much Victrix!

Is there written on the illustratoin if the blade is contributed to one of the named makers (and that the blade is earlier zthan 1679)?

Best regards
Andreas

I can’t read the writing unfortunately; it’s too faint. Seems this crucifix appears with a Moor’s head? I think the year is fairly definite with the earlier version of Reiterdegen in the book having a fishtail pommel.

AHorsa · 15th June 2020, 09:13 PM

Thank you Victrix!
You cited from Staffan Kinman’s book. Is there a flower pot mark described in that book by any chance? The mark was discussed years ago but couldn´t be assigned to a specific maker.

Thanks
Andreas

Victrix · 15th June 2020, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

Thank you Victrix!
You cited from Staffan Kinman’s book. Is there a flower pot mark described in that book by any chance? The mark was discussed years ago but couldn´t be assigned to a specific maker.

Thanks
Andreas

I’m currently out on an island in the archipelago without access to the book. Will check in few days time.

In the meantime might we see more of your interesting sword?

fernando · 16th June 2020, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

... In the meantime might we see more of your interesting sword?

Yes, Andreas; please do it !

AHorsa · 16th June 2020, 03:39 PM

Would be great if you could have a look, Victrix.

The sword was discussed years ago in this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18464

Victrix · 18th June 2020, 04:50 PM

Yes I remember this stunning sword. You cleaned it so well.

The nearest mark I can find in Kinman’s book has a reference to the Wallace collection which looks about right, although it doesn’t show the mark nor mention ”Viennese.” It doesn’t give any name of the maker/smith but states Solingen which corresponds with the running wolf mark on your blade. Could the number 1518 be the Bible’s John 15:18? https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-15-18/

AHorsa · 18th June 2020, 09:35 PM

Thank you Victrix!!
This mark is also described in the Wallace collection catalogue and it says that it also exists on a rapier in the Metropolitan Museum and on a sword in musee lármee Paris. But sadly also no name.
Bible´s John 15 : 18 is a good idea. But I have no idea how to proof it. From what I´ve read about those numbers it is also not clear if they really refer to Bible verses or if they have other meanings (like some assume that eg. 1414 has something to do wit 2x7x101 or so)

Victrix · 18th June 2020, 10:03 PM

Yes I missed the Description bit: ”Swords with hilts of this kind are often described as Viennese. Compare the mark of a pot of flowers on a Solingen sword in the Musée de l' Armée, Paris (Weyersberg, Solinger Schwertschmiede, p. 75) and a rapier in the Metropolitan Museum, New York (no. 1056). Another was at one time in the de Cosson Collection.”

The idea of the number representing a verse in the Bible is pure speculation on my part but I’m sure the numbers had meaning to people at the time or they wouldn’t have bothered to put it there. I got the idea from a sword in Sweden where the museum thought the four digit number referred to a Bible verse. If so, why is the sword not marked 15:18 or maybe the colon was not used in those days. It’s believed that if numbers repeated and were palindromes etc the power increased. But I’m sure the numbers meant something to start with: prayers, Bible verses, etc. People in those days were highly superstitious because they had less scientific knowledge and life was usually brutish and short.

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2020, 12:25 AM

Regarding those 4 number combinations, particularly used with the 'running wolf' (passau wolf as used in Solingen) these I have always considered to be magic number configurations. Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967) presents a lot of interesting detail on magic numbers, markings etc.

While there are of course many instances of religious invocations and patriotic mottos and slogans occurring on blades either outright or in acrostic groupings, I am not familiar with Biblical verses being represented.

The 'Passau wolf' was in my opinion primarily a talismanic symbol which became indicative of quality and protective imbuement. As Victrix has well noted, despite powerful religious Faith, Europeans in these times were highly superstitious, and even more so in military ranks, where they faced mortal danger often. In Wagner (op. cit.) he describes the case for 'Passau art' where forces acquiring weapons from there relied considerably on the talismanic properties imbued in these arms.

The magic using values assigned to these numbers in accord with occult materials of the time were placed along with the wolf to become a kind of amulet in the weapon itself. While Wagner does suggest the possibility of Biblical association, the potential for magic connotation seems more compelling in this context.

7th June 2020, 02:14 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Identification makers mark Hi there, in the thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=felddegen there is an image of some "Felddegen" in the Castle of Ambras. Two of them on the left side show a kruzifix makers mark. Does anyone have information about this mark? Thanks and best regards Andreas

10th June 2020, 11:45 AM	#2
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	Staffan Kinman’s ”European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks” (2015) shows the following with crucifix marks: Hannes Cleles, Solingen c. 1580-1640 Pedro Hernandez, Toledo @ 1610-1630 Johannes Kohl the Elder, Solingen 1580-1620 The Reiterdegen with crucifix mark is illustrated in Anton Dolloczek’s ”Monographie der k.u.k. österr. ung. blanken und Handfeuerwaffen” (1896). Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 10th June 2020 at 12:18 PM.

15th June 2020, 09:13 PM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thank you Victrix! You cited from Staffan Kinman’s book. Is there a flower pot mark described in that book by any chance? The mark was discussed years ago but couldn´t be assigned to a specific maker. Thanks Andreas Attached Images

16th June 2020, 03:39 PM	#8
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Would be great if you could have a look, Victrix. The sword was discussed years ago in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18464 Attached Images

18th June 2020, 04:50 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	Yes I remember this stunning sword. You cleaned it so well. The nearest mark I can find in Kinman’s book has a reference to the Wallace collection which looks about right, although it doesn’t show the mark nor mention ”Viennese.” It doesn’t give any name of the maker/smith but states Solingen which corresponds with the running wolf mark on your blade. Could the number 1518 be the Bible’s John 15:18? https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-15-18/ Attached Images Last edited by Victrix; 18th June 2020 at 05:09 PM.

15th June 2020, 08:11 PM	#3
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Great! Thank you very much Victrix! Is there written on the illustratoin if the blade is contributed to one of the named makers (and that the blade is earlier zthan 1679)? Best regards Andreas

18th June 2020, 09:35 PM	#10
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thank you Victrix!! This mark is also described in the Wallace collection catalogue and it says that it also exists on a rapier in the Metropolitan Museum and on a sword in musee lármee Paris. But sadly also no name. Bible´s John 15 : 18 is a good idea. But I have no idea how to proof it. From what I´ve read about those numbers it is also not clear if they really refer to Bible verses or if they have other meanings (like some assume that eg. 1414 has something to do wit 2x7x101 or so)

18th June 2020, 10:03 PM	#11
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	Yes I missed the Description bit: ”Swords with hilts of this kind are often described as Viennese. Compare the mark of a pot of flowers on a Solingen sword in the Musée de l' Armée, Paris (Weyersberg, Solinger Schwertschmiede, p. 75) and a rapier in the Metropolitan Museum, New York (no. 1056). Another was at one time in the de Cosson Collection.” The idea of the number representing a verse in the Bible is pure speculation on my part but I’m sure the numbers had meaning to people at the time or they wouldn’t have bothered to put it there. I got the idea from a sword in Sweden where the museum thought the four digit number referred to a Bible verse. If so, why is the sword not marked 15:18 or maybe the colon was not used in those days. It’s believed that if numbers repeated and were palindromes etc the power increased. But I’m sure the numbers meant something to start with: prayers, Bible verses, etc. People in those days were highly superstitious because they had less scientific knowledge and life was usually brutish and short.

19th June 2020, 12:25 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Regarding those 4 number combinations, particularly used with the 'running wolf' (passau wolf as used in Solingen) these I have always considered to be magic number configurations. Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967) presents a lot of interesting detail on magic numbers, markings etc. While there are of course many instances of religious invocations and patriotic mottos and slogans occurring on blades either outright or in acrostic groupings, I am not familiar with Biblical verses being represented. The 'Passau wolf' was in my opinion primarily a talismanic symbol which became indicative of quality and protective imbuement. As Victrix has well noted, despite powerful religious Faith, Europeans in these times were highly superstitious, and even more so in military ranks, where they faced mortal danger often. In Wagner (op. cit.) he describes the case for 'Passau art' where forces acquiring weapons from there relied considerably on the talismanic properties imbued in these arms. The magic using values assigned to these numbers in accord with occult materials of the time were placed along with the wolf to become a kind of amulet in the weapon itself. While Wagner does suggest the possibility of Biblical association, the potential for magic connotation seems more compelling in this context.