Gunong, goo'na for comment and a lot of questions

Interested Party · 4th May 2023, 06:03 PM

I picked this up a couple years ago and have been debating what to do with it. I originally thought it might be a fragment of a broken kris and it was cheap so I picked it up. I am a sucker for laminated steel. After a little researching I found the style was relatively common. Age I don't want to hazard a guess? Condition; no sheath, bad job of rehilting the blade (used epoxy), the blade is also highly patinated with a slightly spurred tip. Overall length around 14", blade 9 1/4". Wood handle highly patinaed, no hard finish such as polyurethane, some chatoyancy. Cast brass ferule, brass guard with the lip of the blade slightly proud on the side of the main cutting edge. This seems fairly common as I have found a few pictures of similarly hilted gunongs in this style. The balance feels very tip heavy, but in reality is only at the third bend (is luk appropriate here). The blade has 7 bends and seems laminated. Now the odd part if you look at the detail pictures of the blade below there seems to be a yellow metal in the occlusions left by the forging process that have not tarnished in the last few years, though the blade has been well oiled...Research material is hard to come for me on Philipine and Moro weapons particularly daggers. Cato had nothing to say about gunongs. I have attached the relevant portions of Herbert W Krieger's book.

So here are the questions.
1) Age
2)Handle. I have not been able to find out about this shape. I have seen quite a few pictured in threads:
Numerous examples in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5732
Post 21 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong
A beautiful example in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong
Was this style of handle steadily produced though less popular, or regional and/or of a specific time period?
3) What do you think of the blade?
4) What would you all do with this piece? Clean? Clean, polish the blade and etch? If the etch is good would you re hilt with a cutlers resin and seat the handle snuggly as it should be?
5) Any more suggestions for research matterial in Pinay and Moro arms other than Edwin R. Bastula's book that I can seem to find?

All comments are welcome. Thanks as always for viewing.
IP

RobT · 5th May 2023, 12:54 AM

Hi Interested Party,

Your dagger goes by a number of names that I am aware of; gunong, puñal, puñal de kris (or creese), belt kris. These daggers are Moro weapons. The general consensus is that they were originally designed as last resort hideaways tucked inside the blouse. I really like them and have a good number of examples. What follows are my answers to your questions. Hopefully, Ferguson will weigh in.
Age: If you notice, the curves of the center ridge follow those of the edge. This means that the blade was forged around a mandrel in traditional fashion. The blade could easily be 19th century. It could just as easily be a 20th century blade made in the traditional manner.
Hilt: Although the hilt shape is a bit unusual, it isn’t too far from the norm and I think it is most likely 19th century. It is well fitted to the ferrule and guard which are of traditional style and all three components appear to belong together.
Blade: As far as the profile goes, the blade is as good as it gets. The only way it could be better than shown is if it turns out to be mechanical damascus (which is very likely).
Restoration: If you think that you can get the blade loose without damaging any of the components, by all means do so. Epoxy is tough stuff so, if you have a means to defeat it without damaging anything, we would all like to know about it. Re-affixing the hilt with cutler’s resin or any easily removed fixative is the way to go.
If the blade were mine, I would follow this procedure: Before cleaning the blade I personally would TOTALLY immerse it in Evapo-rust for 24 hours. (If you don’t totally immerse the blade, the Evapo-rust will etch a line in the part of the blade not covered and that line will be darn near impossible to get out). Also note that, If you lay the blade on any Evapo-rust soaked material (as is recommended by the manufacturer), the Evapo-rust will etch the material pattern into the blade if it is left too long. Totally immersing the blade will remove any rust and also show if there is any damascus pattern. Be aware that the Evapo-rust will turn the blade grey. This can be polished out by hand rubbing with a russet brown 3M abrasive pad which will also remove any black rust that the Evapo-rust didn’t get. The hand rubbing is time consuming, so be patient. Once the blade is bright and shiny again, coat it liberally with a 3% nital solution. This will bring out the damascus pattern clearly once again. Oil or wax the blade to protect it.

Sincerely,
RobT

Rick · 5th May 2023, 01:18 AM

I believe this one was exhibited in the History of Steel and shown in the catalog.
As you can see, the separation of the blade and guard is similar to your example.

Ian · 5th May 2023, 01:18 PM

Ip,

Now that you have epoxied the hilt to the tang I would not try to undo it. The risk of trauma to the hilt is considerable. As long as the hilt is fixed firmly in the correct orientation, I'd leave it be.

This is an old blade and I would go slowly in cleaning and polishing it. I'm not a big fan of using hydrochloric acid (aka muriatic acid) which I believe is the active ingredient in Evapo-rust. I prefer mechanical removal of rust or stains. I would start with 220 grit sandpaper to get the rust off, then move to 400 and 800 grit for polishing. The sandpaper won't get in every little nook and cranny but I think it is safer than cleaning with a very strong acid.

To etch, a lot of people use ferric chloride (the circuit board etchant that Rick referred to). It gives a good result, although the darker areas can take on brown tones which some people dislike. Alternatives are lime or lemon juice, or vinegar. These take longer than ferric chloride to do the job. Vinegar (acetic acid) also work well but not always. Nital is hard to get. Suppliers are reluctant to ship it in concentrations of 5% or greater because it is potentially explosive. You may need to be a chemist or work for a steel company or university to get your hands on some in the U.S. It is also strongly acidic and must be handled carefully.

Don't forget the hilt. The brass ferrule needs a polish and the banati(?) wood hilt could do with a gentle clean with soap and water and a little teak oil to stop it drying out and cracking. Once the oil has penetrated, I usually seal the hilt with a micro-silicon wax (e.g. Renaissance Wax).

Good luck and I look forward to seeing the result!

Sajen · 5th May 2023, 04:57 PM

You have a very old gunong, most probably 19th century. What are the hints for this assumption? The elongated handle is typical for older gunongs IMHO. The casted ferrule in one piece with the guard is another hint. Also the blade form let me think like this.
The advice from Ian seems to be a good one but I would try to loosen the hilt and refit it properly.
Compare with three similar examples from my own collection.
Let us see what you will do with it!

Regards,
Detlef

Interested Party · 5th May 2023, 05:35 PM

Thanks all for the help.

Detlef Thanks. From looking through old threads and the example in Krieger I had begun to wonder if that handle shape wasn't a cue to date gunongs.

Ian I was not the one who epoxied the handle. I have a few ethnographic knives I have picked up over the years with this problem most are heavier made than the more refined taper to the edge this dagger has. Almost all of them have some play in the handle. I have been thinking one day I will fire up the torch and try to heat them gently to 250 F and see if that is enough to loosen them completely. I am worried about splitting old woods if anyone has any advice on this subject.

I have been thinking a vinegar etch. I have had good results with 5 coats of brushed on strained lime juice with a wash and light polish between coats using a leather buff cloth and cerium oxide as well. Both give a mellow subtle contrast. I am nervous about ferric chloride and as you said I have to ask a friend for a favor for Nital. Plus my sheds get to at least 130-140 F in the summer, and I do not want to store it in my house. If I get decide to use Nital maybe I will dig a hole and bury a 5 gallon bucket with a screw on lid for storage of volatile materials. And cover the whole thing with a scrap of plywood to keep it cool. I have also read that Nital can work its way deep into the softer layers of a blade.

I usually use linseed, boiled or raw depending on the application. I also have tsung oil, and mineral oil laying around for when I need a different look. I have been experimenting on using a blend of tsung and linseed oil lately. My next experiment will be trying that mix with a few drops of turpentine for added penetration. The turpentine usually yellows a bit though. That was a trick to antique maple when I was a kid.

Rick I can see a scar in the guard where the blade used to sit. It seems when many people rehilt an old blade that originally used cutlers resin they do not clean out the old grove enough to allow room for both the blade and the new medium. I use drill rod blanks made into router bits in successively longer lengths to clean the hole.

RobT Thanks for the detailed response. The curved center line can be ground in as well. I did some serpentine blades as a tween that I ground the curving line in using a stock removal process. Next time I see my Dad I will try to snap a photo. What can't be hidden is when an already finished straight blade is modified to be serpentine in profile.

Muradic acid. I have always been curious as to how it would etch steel. I did not know it was the same as hydrochloric acid. It is readily available to remove lime stains from masonry. You no longer need special permission to buy it as it is no longer a popular ingredient in Methamphetamine (20 years ago I got surprised by a localized thunderstorm and stained a freshly laid rock wall and had to try to figure out how to clean up the mess. That was how I learned about the ban on muriatic acid sales and the connection to drug labs.) Does anyone use hydrochloric acid as their preferred etchant? Or as a backup?

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the yellow metal in the occlusions. I found that feature very odd. They can be seen with the naked eye. I just magnified them to make examination online easier.

Thanks again for the advice. It is very much appreciated.
IP

Rick · 6th May 2023, 12:05 AM

[QUOTE=Interested Party;281711]
Rick I can see a scar in the guard where the blade used to sit.[QUOTE]

IP: there is no scar on the guard, mate.
Clean as a whistle.

RobT · 6th May 2023, 05:10 AM

Rick
Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example.

Ian,
According to the Evapo-rust label, their product is non-toxic, ph neutral, and the spent solution can be safely flushed down the drain. This doesn’t sound like muriatic acid in any significant concentration to me. I am convinced that, if used as I described, Evapo-rust is the most effective and non-problematic rust removal strategy currently available. I am not a great fan of sandpaper because (in the grits you recommend) it is hard enough to remove steel to create a level surface (trust me, as an amateur woodworker I know this). I much prefer the 3M abrasive pads which aren’t hard enough to remove steel surface but are sharp enough to round over pitting and remove rust. Nital solutions in 2% and 3% are non-explosive and thus can be bought online and shipped vial mail. These weak solutions are also far less dangerous to the user and can be more easily controlled when applied. I have used both ferric chloride and 2-3% nital and much prefer nital because it doesn’t stain the blade brown and because I have found that ferric chloride is much harder to “kill” even with large amounts of water and baking soda. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know).

Interested Party,
I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner.
There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade.

Sincerely,
RobT

Ian · 6th May 2023, 02:16 PM

Hi Rob,

I can only speak from my experience. Hydrochloric or phosphoric acid has been in every effective rust remover I've encountered previously. I don't know what would be in Evapo-rust that would otherwise dissolve the oxidized iron. I can't get it in Australia so I have not had a chance to try it.

With regard to sandpaper, it works well enough for me. If I want a cleaner job, I use a friend's blasting cabinet with peanut shells or a little Black Beauty for an abrasive.

As far as purchasing Nital, I tried hard to get some when living in the U.S. about ten years ago. Must have called a dozen suppliers and they all told me the same thing. I had to be a metallurgist, an engineer, or a chemist to get any sent to me. I eventually persuaded a chemist friend at the University where I worked to get some for me. The highest strength that would be sent by post was 2%, because it was considered unstable and an explosive hazard at 5% and above. It's also a strong acid, classified as a hazardous material, which is another red flag for postal and parcel services. Since commercial amounts of Nital were in 2%, 5%, or possibly 10% concentrations, the strongest they were allowed to send via post or parcel was 2%.

Ian · 6th May 2023, 02:27 PM

Hi Rob,

Just looked up the Material Safety Data Sheet for Evapo-rust. It's got 10–20% phosphoric acid in it. Pretty heavy duty acid that will etch steel.

.

Interested Party · 6th May 2023, 03:21 PM

[QUOTE=Rick;281714][QUOTE=Interested Party;281711]
Rick I can see a scar in the guard where the blade used to sit.

Quote:

IP: there is no scar on the guard, mate.
Clean as a whistle.

Good call. I stand corrected. What I thought was a scar was a raised section in the shape of the blade where the rough texture from the casting had not been polished out. I should have used better light and more magnification.

Interested Party · 6th May 2023, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Rick
1. Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example.
....There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade.

2. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know).

3. Interested Party,
I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner.

Sincerely,
RobT

1. Rob I agree with you that this could indicate replacement and believed this when I purchased the item as implied in the original post " I originally thought it might be a fragment of a broken kris and it was cheap so I picked it up." It wasn't until I started researching this post that I found the form was trend, complete with its oddities and flaws. See pictures below all from the first thread I referenced earlier called "My Philipine Gunong Collection". The photos are from gunongs of Ferguson, Ferguson via Sajen, Spunjer, and Rafngard. I hope these members will not mind my use of their photos. The idea that this style might be original and old came to mind when I saw a much fancier example fitted similarly on a commercial site. I started combing the reference material I could find, and the forum archives. It made me wish, yet again, that we had access to the discussions from the beginning of the group. This isn't a complaint just a wish, that fuels a fear that the more modern version of this forum and it's collected information may be lost as well someday. The published example in Krieger Plate 13, ex. 7 may have the same overhang. It is hard to tell with the pixelization of the photo. Some examples have had this corner filed off. The overhang would not have been an issue when carried in a blouse as the sheath would cover the spur. On the flip side one's hand slipped slightly while thrusting it would be uncomfortable. I would find the shape of the guard an irritant against bare skin as well as it would not lay flat without a very thick scabbard. This is a universal feature of this pattern.

All that said if this is a replacement, and all the other examples like it, it leads to the question of what were the style original fittings of this knife and all the similar examples?

2. I think given the thinness of the examples blade and its continuous taper to a fine edge I would have trouble removing this blade without damaging the temper. For slightly looser blades of beefier construction, I will attempt to slowly heat the blade with a torch to around 250 F wrap the blade in leather pad while wearing a welding glove try to work the hopefully softened epoxy lose. After those experiments I could evaluate this blade. The responses here are not filling me with confidence

3. Rob, I am not arguing that this blade was probably made using a mandrel as it is laminated, and the mandrel would be the easiest method if one has access to a forge. BUT I created a serpentine blade free hand at 13 with a bench grinder and my grandfather's advice. With what I have seen done with an angle grinder on Youtube I have no doubts that a Philippine worker could easily accomplish this task. As an adult I could do it with a file. Would it be profitable for me? No. For a rural person who makes a $1-3 a day and can sell this product on Ebay for $100 usd? Yes, it would be highly profitable even if their cut was only $20-40 for five days labor. The question I wonder is could one make this curve with a fully hardened drawknife type of tool? Once again, I'm not arguing the point, but this is a good topic for us to consider when we evaluate purchases.

Thanks for giving me a chance to get these ideas out of my head and into a public space to debate their validity.
IP

RobT · 8th May 2023, 07:32 PM

Ian,
Thanks for the data sheet. I did a screen grab and it’s now part of my data base (the wide range of phosphoric acid percent is a bit odd though). I don’t know at what percent phosphoric acid is considered strongly corrosive and I don’t know how (or whether or not) the phosphoric acid is buffered in the Evapo-rust solution. I do know, however, that I have gotten Evapo-rust all over my hands a number of times while working with it and have suffered no discomfort or ill effects to my skin whatsoever. When I finished working with the product, I simply washed my hands with soap and water. Whatever the strength of Evapo-rust is, it takes about 24 hours to etch a blade and that etch can be easily polished out. By the way, If a blade is left suspended in the solution for 24 hours, absolutely all the red rust will be gone but Evapo-rust struggles with black rust and is minimally effective.

Interested Party,
You make an excellent point about the base of the blade being covered by the sheath and thus being unable to contact the skin. I did note however that, in the 13 examples you posted, only 2 appeared to have a guard shorter than the base of the blade. All the rest had guards that were either wider or at least equal to the base of the blade so perhaps your surmise of discomfort to the hand during use is correct. As for the guard being a possible irritant, I checked my older examples that appear to have been made with concealed carry in mind and found every guard to be rounded smooth on all edges.
I would be willing to bet the ranch that, for a skilled Philippine smith, shaping such an obviously fine blade as yours around a mandrel would be quicker than stock removal.
If I were trying to remove a blade with heat, I would try a heat gun rather than a torch. If that didn’t work, I would give up. If you decide to press ahead, good luck with whatever method you choose to use.

Sincerely,
RobT

Interested Party · 8th May 2023, 07:48 PM

Haha I put a heat gun on my hardware store list last night. Great minds think alike. It also will help the finishing of kydex sheaths and a lot of other projects.

Absolutely forging is faster if you don't have a powerful belt grinder and more efficient with the iron if you are having to mine it. I have watched villager friends make utility knives out of worn-out machetes with a saw, a file, and granite boulders. It takes a while.

I also find the blade's edge hanging over the guard is not an attractive look.

Thanks again for the input.

4th May 2023, 06:03 PM	#1
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 465	Gunong, goo'na for comment and a lot of questions I picked this up a couple years ago and have been debating what to do with it. I originally thought it might be a fragment of a broken kris and it was cheap so I picked it up. I am a sucker for laminated steel. After a little researching I found the style was relatively common. Age I don't want to hazard a guess? Condition; no sheath, bad job of rehilting the blade (used epoxy), the blade is also highly patinated with a slightly spurred tip. Overall length around 14", blade 9 1/4". Wood handle highly patinaed, no hard finish such as polyurethane, some chatoyancy. Cast brass ferule, brass guard with the lip of the blade slightly proud on the side of the main cutting edge. This seems fairly common as I have found a few pictures of similarly hilted gunongs in this style. The balance feels very tip heavy, but in reality is only at the third bend (is luk appropriate here). The blade has 7 bends and seems laminated. Now the odd part if you look at the detail pictures of the blade below there seems to be a yellow metal in the occlusions left by the forging process that have not tarnished in the last few years, though the blade has been well oiled...Research material is hard to come for me on Philipine and Moro weapons particularly daggers. Cato had nothing to say about gunongs. I have attached the relevant portions of Herbert W Krieger's book. So here are the questions. 1) Age 2)Handle. I have not been able to find out about this shape. I have seen quite a few pictured in threads: Numerous examples in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5732 Post 21 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong A beautiful example in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gunong Was this style of handle steadily produced though less popular, or regional and/or of a specific time period? 3) What do you think of the blade? 4) What would you all do with this piece? Clean? Clean, polish the blade and etch? If the etch is good would you re hilt with a cutlers resin and seat the handle snuggly as it should be? 5) Any more suggestions for research matterial in Pinay and Moro arms other than Edwin R. Bastula's book that I can seem to find? All comments are welcome. Thanks as always for viewing. IP Attached Images

5th May 2023, 12:54 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	My Opinions Hi Interested Party, Your dagger goes by a number of names that I am aware of; gunong, puñal, puñal de kris (or creese), belt kris. These daggers are Moro weapons. The general consensus is that they were originally designed as last resort hideaways tucked inside the blouse. I really like them and have a good number of examples. What follows are my answers to your questions. Hopefully, Ferguson will weigh in. Age: If you notice, the curves of the center ridge follow those of the edge. This means that the blade was forged around a mandrel in traditional fashion. The blade could easily be 19th century. It could just as easily be a 20th century blade made in the traditional manner. Hilt: Although the hilt shape is a bit unusual, it isn’t too far from the norm and I think it is most likely 19th century. It is well fitted to the ferrule and guard which are of traditional style and all three components appear to belong together. Blade: As far as the profile goes, the blade is as good as it gets. The only way it could be better than shown is if it turns out to be mechanical damascus (which is very likely). Restoration: If you think that you can get the blade loose without damaging any of the components, by all means do so. Epoxy is tough stuff so, if you have a means to defeat it without damaging anything, we would all like to know about it. Re-affixing the hilt with cutler’s resin or any easily removed fixative is the way to go. If the blade were mine, I would follow this procedure: Before cleaning the blade I personally would TOTALLY immerse it in Evapo-rust for 24 hours. (If you don’t totally immerse the blade, the Evapo-rust will etch a line in the part of the blade not covered and that line will be darn near impossible to get out). Also note that, If you lay the blade on any Evapo-rust soaked material (as is recommended by the manufacturer), the Evapo-rust will etch the material pattern into the blade if it is left too long. Totally immersing the blade will remove any rust and also show if there is any damascus pattern. Be aware that the Evapo-rust will turn the blade grey. This can be polished out by hand rubbing with a russet brown 3M abrasive pad which will also remove any black rust that the Evapo-rust didn’t get. The hand rubbing is time consuming, so be patient. Once the blade is bright and shiny again, coat it liberally with a 3% nital solution. This will bring out the damascus pattern clearly once again. Oil or wax the blade to protect it. Sincerely, RobT

5th May 2023, 01:18 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Gunong I believe this one was exhibited in the History of Steel and shown in the catalog. As you can see, the separation of the blade and guard is similar to your example. Attached Images

5th May 2023, 04:57 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	You have a very old gunong, most probably 19th century. What are the hints for this assumption? The elongated handle is typical for older gunongs IMHO. The casted ferrule in one piece with the guard is another hint. Also the blade form let me think like this. The advice from Ian seems to be a good one but I would try to loosen the hilt and refit it properly. Compare with three similar examples from my own collection. Let us see what you will do with it! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th May 2023, 05:10 AM	#8
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	Additional Thoughts Rick Although a blade not fully seated in the hilt is shown in a catalogue, I don’t think we should accept that as an indicator of typical or correct practice. There have been many posts on this forum noting the lamentable errors of museum “experts”. This could be just another example. Ian, According to the Evapo-rust label, their product is non-toxic, ph neutral, and the spent solution can be safely flushed down the drain. This doesn’t sound like muriatic acid in any significant concentration to me. I am convinced that, if used as I described, Evapo-rust is the most effective and non-problematic rust removal strategy currently available. I am not a great fan of sandpaper because (in the grits you recommend) it is hard enough to remove steel to create a level surface (trust me, as an amateur woodworker I know this). I much prefer the 3M abrasive pads which aren’t hard enough to remove steel surface but are sharp enough to round over pitting and remove rust. Nital solutions in 2% and 3% are non-explosive and thus can be bought online and shipped vial mail. These weak solutions are also far less dangerous to the user and can be more easily controlled when applied. I have used both ferric chloride and 2-3% nital and much prefer nital because it doesn’t stain the blade brown and because I have found that ferric chloride is much harder to “kill” even with large amounts of water and baking soda. I agree with you that separating epoxied components without damage is well nigh impossible and indicated such in my post but Interested Party seemed to feel that he had a way to do it so I encouraged him to do so and to let us know how he did it (because I certainly don’t know). Interested Party, I am sure that you could use stock removal to create a serpentine center ridge but could you do it with the equipment likely available to the person who fashioned your gunong? Even if the blade were made in the 20th century, that level of tool kit would most likely be beyond the means of the typical Philippine smith. And, even in the unlikely event the maker had the required equipment, could he use stock removal to profitably make serpentine blades? I think the most plausible scenario is that your blade was fashioned around a mandril in the traditional manner. There Is one issue that I didn’t mention before because you said that you have seen examples. The guard on your hilt isn’t as wide as the base of the blade. In my modest collection of 25 gunong, every guard is noticeably wider than the base of the blade. The general consensus is that the gunong was initially intended a weapon of last resort worn hidden inside the blouse. As such, the base of the blade, if unprotected by the guard could potentially be rather uncomfortable against bare skin. I wonder if your blade couldn’t be fully seated because the hilt/ferrule/guard isn’t original to the blade. Sincerely, RobT

5th May 2023, 01:18 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Ip, Now that you have epoxied the hilt to the tang I would not try to undo it. The risk of trauma to the hilt is considerable. As long as the hilt is fixed firmly in the correct orientation, I'd leave it be. This is an old blade and I would go slowly in cleaning and polishing it. I'm not a big fan of using hydrochloric acid (aka muriatic acid) which I believe is the active ingredient in Evapo-rust. I prefer mechanical removal of rust or stains. I would start with 220 grit sandpaper to get the rust off, then move to 400 and 800 grit for polishing. The sandpaper won't get in every little nook and cranny but I think it is safer than cleaning with a very strong acid. To etch, a lot of people use ferric chloride (the circuit board etchant that Rick referred to). It gives a good result, although the darker areas can take on brown tones which some people dislike. Alternatives are lime or lemon juice, or vinegar. These take longer than ferric chloride to do the job. Vinegar (acetic acid) also work well but not always. Nital is hard to get. Suppliers are reluctant to ship it in concentrations of 5% or greater because it is potentially explosive. You may need to be a chemist or work for a steel company or university to get your hands on some in the U.S. It is also strongly acidic and must be handled carefully. Don't forget the hilt. The brass ferrule needs a polish and the banati(?) wood hilt could do with a gentle clean with soap and water and a little teak oil to stop it drying out and cracking. Once the oil has penetrated, I usually seal the hilt with a micro-silicon wax (e.g. Renaissance Wax). Good luck and I look forward to seeing the result!

5th May 2023, 05:35 PM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 465	Thanks all for the help. Detlef Thanks. From looking through old threads and the example in Krieger I had begun to wonder if that handle shape wasn't a cue to date gunongs. Ian I was not the one who epoxied the handle. I have a few ethnographic knives I have picked up over the years with this problem most are heavier made than the more refined taper to the edge this dagger has. Almost all of them have some play in the handle. I have been thinking one day I will fire up the torch and try to heat them gently to 250 F and see if that is enough to loosen them completely. I am worried about splitting old woods if anyone has any advice on this subject. I have been thinking a vinegar etch. I have had good results with 5 coats of brushed on strained lime juice with a wash and light polish between coats using a leather buff cloth and cerium oxide as well. Both give a mellow subtle contrast. I am nervous about ferric chloride and as you said I have to ask a friend for a favor for Nital. Plus my sheds get to at least 130-140 F in the summer, and I do not want to store it in my house. If I get decide to use Nital maybe I will dig a hole and bury a 5 gallon bucket with a screw on lid for storage of volatile materials. And cover the whole thing with a scrap of plywood to keep it cool. I have also read that Nital can work its way deep into the softer layers of a blade. I usually use linseed, boiled or raw depending on the application. I also have tsung oil, and mineral oil laying around for when I need a different look. I have been experimenting on using a blend of tsung and linseed oil lately. My next experiment will be trying that mix with a few drops of turpentine for added penetration. The turpentine usually yellows a bit though. That was a trick to antique maple when I was a kid. Rick I can see a scar in the guard where the blade used to sit. It seems when many people rehilt an old blade that originally used cutlers resin they do not clean out the old grove enough to allow room for both the blade and the new medium. I use drill rod blanks made into router bits in successively longer lengths to clean the hole. RobT Thanks for the detailed response. The curved center line can be ground in as well. I did some serpentine blades as a tween that I ground the curving line in using a stock removal process. Next time I see my Dad I will try to snap a photo. What can't be hidden is when an already finished straight blade is modified to be serpentine in profile. Muradic acid. I have always been curious as to how it would etch steel. I did not know it was the same as hydrochloric acid. It is readily available to remove lime stains from masonry. You no longer need special permission to buy it as it is no longer a popular ingredient in Methamphetamine (20 years ago I got surprised by a localized thunderstorm and stained a freshly laid rock wall and had to try to figure out how to clean up the mess. That was how I learned about the ban on muriatic acid sales and the connection to drug labs.) Does anyone use hydrochloric acid as their preferred etchant? Or as a backup? I am surprised that no one has mentioned the yellow metal in the occlusions. I found that feature very odd. They can be seen with the naked eye. I just magnified them to make examination online easier. Thanks again for the advice. It is very much appreciated. IP

6th May 2023, 12:05 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	[QUOTE=Interested Party;281711] Rick I can see a scar in the guard where the blade used to sit.[QUOTE] IP: there is no scar on the guard, mate. Clean as a whistle.

6th May 2023, 02:16 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hi Rob, I can only speak from my experience. Hydrochloric or phosphoric acid has been in every effective rust remover I've encountered previously. I don't know what would be in Evapo-rust that would otherwise dissolve the oxidized iron. I can't get it in Australia so I have not had a chance to try it. With regard to sandpaper, it works well enough for me. If I want a cleaner job, I use a friend's blasting cabinet with peanut shells or a little Black Beauty for an abrasive. As far as purchasing Nital, I tried hard to get some when living in the U.S. about ten years ago. Must have called a dozen suppliers and they all told me the same thing. I had to be a metallurgist, an engineer, or a chemist to get any sent to me. I eventually persuaded a chemist friend at the University where I worked to get some for me. The highest strength that would be sent by post was 2%, because it was considered unstable and an explosive hazard at 5% and above. It's also a strong acid, classified as a hazardous material, which is another red flag for postal and parcel services. Since commercial amounts of Nital were in 2%, 5%, or possibly 10% concentrations, the strongest they were allowed to send via post or parcel was 2%.

6th May 2023, 02:27 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hi Rob, Just looked up the Material Safety Data Sheet for Evapo-rust. It's got 10–20% phosphoric acid in it. Pretty heavy duty acid that will etch steel. . Attached Images

8th May 2023, 07:32 PM	#13
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	Additional Comments Ian, Thanks for the data sheet. I did a screen grab and it’s now part of my data base (the wide range of phosphoric acid percent is a bit odd though). I don’t know at what percent phosphoric acid is considered strongly corrosive and I don’t know how (or whether or not) the phosphoric acid is buffered in the Evapo-rust solution. I do know, however, that I have gotten Evapo-rust all over my hands a number of times while working with it and have suffered no discomfort or ill effects to my skin whatsoever. When I finished working with the product, I simply washed my hands with soap and water. Whatever the strength of Evapo-rust is, it takes about 24 hours to etch a blade and that etch can be easily polished out. By the way, If a blade is left suspended in the solution for 24 hours, absolutely all the red rust will be gone but Evapo-rust struggles with black rust and is minimally effective. Interested Party, You make an excellent point about the base of the blade being covered by the sheath and thus being unable to contact the skin. I did note however that, in the 13 examples you posted, only 2 appeared to have a guard shorter than the base of the blade. All the rest had guards that were either wider or at least equal to the base of the blade so perhaps your surmise of discomfort to the hand during use is correct. As for the guard being a possible irritant, I checked my older examples that appear to have been made with concealed carry in mind and found every guard to be rounded smooth on all edges. I would be willing to bet the ranch that, for a skilled Philippine smith, shaping such an obviously fine blade as yours around a mandrel would be quicker than stock removal. If I were trying to remove a blade with heat, I would try a heat gun rather than a torch. If that didn’t work, I would give up. If you decide to press ahead, good luck with whatever method you choose to use. Sincerely, RobT

8th May 2023, 07:48 PM	#14
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 465	Haha I put a heat gun on my hardware store list last night. Great minds think alike. It also will help the finishing of kydex sheaths and a lot of other projects. Absolutely forging is faster if you don't have a powerful belt grinder and more efficient with the iron if you are having to mine it. I have watched villager friends make utility knives out of worn-out machetes with a saw, a file, and granite boulders. It takes a while. I also find the blade's edge hanging over the guard is not an attractive look. Thanks again for the input.