Reproduction hooded katars?

[estcrh]

This group of hooded katars were sold recently, they look fake to me, any other opinions would be appreciated.

AMAZING AUCTION for 4 antique and attractive 19th century Indian Hooded Katar daggers. It is very rare to come by these pieces in a lot like this. The katars are of all steel construction and have worked in floral motifs on the hoods. The Katars have wear and are being sold as is. Lots of photos attached.

Winning bid:US $1,300.00

[Ian]

These look purely decorative to me and seem to have been made out of sheet metal. There appears to be some stable corrosion remaining in some places, while other places look as though they have been heavily abraded and perhaps polished. Given the thinness of the metal guards, I'm surprised that none of them show any dings from use or bumping about if they are indeed old. Not weapons I would stake my life on.

These have enough negative features that would certainly dissuade me from bidding on them. I hope none of our fellow forumites bought them at that price.

Ian.

[Rick]

I wouldn't even pick up the ten foot pole .

Workmanship is atrocious, IMO .

[BANDOOK]

HI THESE ARE 100% FAKE AND ARE CALLED AS HOODED KATARS FROM TANJORE,SOUTH INDIA,LOT OF THESE ARE MADE IN UDAIPUR ,RAJASTHAN AND ONE CAN BUY THEM FOR 80 -100 $,BUYERS BEWARE

[ariel]

What kind of technique was used to imitate their heavy patination/thick black rust?

[estcrh]

Thanks for your opinions, I agree completely, the same seller also sold 2 pata swords that are "reproductions" as well.

The robust bronze gauntlets with beaded borders, the long, straight, double-edged and flexible blades retained to each hilt with exceptional bronze mounts in the form of fully-modeled monster heads with floriated tongues. With wooden grips intact. Early 19th century. Period repair to one gauntlet, blades brown. Overall length 121.4 cm. Winning bid:US $826.00

[Kubur]

"What kind of technique was used to imitate their heavy patination/thick black rust?"

You put the objects in the ground with water for few weeks then you will have some rust, clean the objects with an oily product and you will get the same patina. If you are in India or Tropical Africa, the rust will come very rapidly.
You can also use salt or rotten eggs...

Kubur

[kronckew]

i saw both those, and for the fun of it turned in a small bid on both to get the ball rolling, i bid less than the postage, knowing it would soon grow. i was suspicious of the thin katar blades, and the flathead screws on the the patas the brass looked thin & shoddy too, so i never increased my bid. was amazed at ho high they finally sold for.

[estcrh]

I sent the seller a message that the items from these two auctions were "reproductions", they have a 100% rating and quite probably did not realize that these items were not authentic antiques. Unfortunately some buyers have now wasted their money, at some point they will realize that these items are not antiques. The seller can do the right thing and at least look into the possibility that they were fooled when they bought these fakes. If they are honest they can still cancel the sale.

goodfindsmine (84 ), 100% Positive feedback

[blue lander]

I found 4 identical katars on the local Craigslist. Seller wants $2500. I'd post the link but its an ongoing sale

Seller wants cash and to be rid of them by tomorrow. In Baltimore

Interestingly, this post went up 10 days ago so it might be unrelated to the eBay sale.

[kahnjar1]

I think that this thread is very timely as there is a real rash of what in my opinion are "suspect" items for sale/auction at present on a well known website. These items are being sold from India and in many cases are described as "rare" and "old". Better described IMHO as "common" and "new"
BE VERY CAREFUL

[ashoka]

At the risk of appearing totally clueless... I see nothing in these katars that suggests they are new fakes to me. They look totally typical South Indian Katars of this species 17th-18th c. Original condition 'lump of rust' and then polished rajasthan style with an angle grinder/and buffing wheel. In my opinion they are genuine - there are many around. nothing suggests otherwise to me. The quality of this type varies a lot from magnificent to very poor quality.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ashoka

At the risk of appearing totally clueless... I see nothing in these katars that suggests they are new fakes to me. They look totally typical South Indian Katars of this species 17th-18th c. Original condition 'lump of rust' and then polished rajasthan style with an angle grinder/and buffing wheel. In my opinion they are genuine - there are many around. nothing suggests otherwise to me. The quality of this type varies a lot from magnificent to very poor quality.

Its good to hear some different opinions, how about the two pata?

[ashoka]

These are not fakes either in my opinion, I haven't exactly seen that configuration before with the makarra heads holding the blade, but there are many lightweight brass patahs and other weapons from South India in this general style. Usually weakly constructed and presumably for temple and dance use. They are old, I hope the seller does not take issue with his name being posted on here next to words such as honesty and fake, as that seems a little harsh. Whether you like these pieces or not is another matter.

[ariel]

That was exactly the reason why I asked the question about rust/ patina.
Having seen quite few of such katars, I would not be so categorical about calling them fake. Just low-level, worn-out , but genuinely old junky katars.

As to the patas.... When did they start using screws from Home Depot in India?:-)

[trenchwarfare]

Urine is an excellent "patinating" agent. An item buried in the ground after being tinkled on, will look 80 years old in two days. I understand the Chinese use chicken poop, neutralized with diesel fuel.

[Roland_M]

[QUOTE=ashoka]At the risk of appearing totally clueless... I see nothing in these katars that suggests they are new fakes to me. QUOTE]

Four different blades with exactly the same state of corrosion after 200-300 years? Never!
Forging job is poor, the decoration is extremely poor, the steel quality seems to be below average. I can see no pattern welded steel and also no wootz, just trash.

Chinese and Africans are highly skilled in artificially aging of metal or wood and it is not so hard as you may think.

Kind Regards Roland

[ashoka]

They aren't even particularly low level ones in my humble opinion, pretty reasonable quality. Years of use being polished with sand and abrasives, rusted totally then repolished badly with a buffing wheel makes them look worse than they are., with deep black pitting and the black buffing wax allover them. The decoration is pretty good, one has the two parrots found on Tanjore weapons. Better ones of these have the forte reinforced with an extra plate, these ones have it chiselled instead. re.Patahs - Screws do turn up in these decorative/ceremonial pieces, it doesn't discount them as being 19th century I think, it also does not indicate they are fakes either. In my opinion... I don't agree they have been artificially patinated in any way, the patina of both is typical.

[ashoka]

[QUOTE=Roland_M]

Originally Posted by ashoka

At the risk of appearing totally clueless... I see nothing in these katars that suggests they are new fakes to me. QUOTE]

Four different blades with exactly the same state of corrosion after 200-300 years? Never!
Forging job is poor, the decoration is extremely poor, the steel quality seems to be below average. I can see no pattern welded steel and also no wootz, just trash.

Chinese and Africans are highly skilled in artificially aging of metal or wood and it is not so hard as you may think.

Kind Regards Roland

There are thousands of heavily rusted Indian weapons with the same patination from armouries and the Indian climate, it is totally typical. And hundreds of these weapons similarly ruined by the mechanical cleaning of the Indian dealers as seen here, again typical. They end up looking awful. Many of the super-plain katars that used to sell in bulk on ebay had gone through this process, probably they still sell on there. As to quality of chiselling that's a matter of taste. Most of the decoration has almost been worn off in areas due to the modern cleaning and but mainly old wear. Wootz or pattern welding would not be visible from those photos and condition, unlikely for this grade weapon/blade type anyway. I,m somewhat surprised by the extremes of opinion here, one mans trash is another mans um.. well I wouldn't call this treasure exactly.

[blue lander]

For what its worth the katars I saw on craigslist looked nearly identical to my untrained eyes to these in decoration, condition and construction. The pictures themselves were different than those of the eBay auction and I believe it was posted before the eBay auction ended.

The Craigslist add is gone now and I didn't think to save pictures.

[Runjeet Singh]

I agree with Stefan that these are NOT fakes. 17th/18thC and been wire wheeled. I don't think they were ever of the best quality, but they are armoury examples that have been left to rot, and then in recent years been over cleaned.

The form is completely standard for this type of dagger, and the proportions look ok, the fullers and designs on the hood look a little crude, but my gut tells me these are old.

I think the craigslist advert is probably the same seller maximising his chance of selling the daggers.

Regards
Runjeet

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Akaalarms

I agree with Stefan that these are NOT fakes. 17th/18thC and been wire wheeled. I don't think they were ever of the best quality, but they are armoury examples that have been left to rot, and then in recent years been over cleaned.

The form is completely standard for this type of dagger, and the proportions look ok, the fullers and designs on the hood look a little crude, but my gut tells me these are old.

Thanks both Stefan and Runjeet for expressing your views on these katars. Both of you due to your occupations probably have seen many more of this type of thing that I ever will. I have looked all over for any image of such a corroded katar and I could find none, do you or anyone here have an image showing a kater that is so rusted that it would require this type of treatment, all I could find was some very heavily patenated ones but none that were rusted.