Kaskara

ariel · 10th April 2006, 06:12 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/SUDANESE-KASKARA...QQcmdZViewItem
The seller states that this one was bought in Sudan last year.
Questions:
1.Do Bejas carry Kaskaras?
2.Some old Kaskaras have German blades with a single wide fuller (like this one). However, this one has no markings. Were they "polished off" or were they ever present? Local blades usually have 3 narrow fullers. Any knowledge of local blades with a single wide one?
3.Is it still possible to get a really old Kaskara in Sudan? Were high quality Kaskaras still made after Mahdi rebellion? Is there a souvenir sword industry there and, if yes, how lavish these swords are (silverwork)?
4. I remember somebody told me that the rope bound to the handle was used to be wrapped around the wrist of the warrior and the British who brought the trophy Kaskaras to England (after the Mahdi war) cut the swords off the Dervishes' dead bodies. Any truth to it? Why does this one have a cut rope if it never left Sudan and was just bought recently?
5. Is this sword new?

mmontoro · 10th April 2006, 01:47 PM

The blade looks like it is made with more quality than what is usually seen - very knowledgeable buyer, too.

Valjhun · 10th April 2006, 02:31 PM

Egyptian kaskara? I've seen more elaborate kaskaras (such as this one) coming from Egypt...

ariel · 10th April 2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Egyptian kaskara? I've seen more elaborate kaskaras (such as this one) coming from Egypt...

Do you mean genuinely old Kaskaras from the Upper Egypt (which is almost Sudanese) or newly-made swords of Egyptian manufacture?

Rick · 10th April 2006, 05:02 PM

I have a kaskara with this type of blade that I purchased from Oriental-Arms . The blade does carry a stamp and is of high quality .

Valjhun · 10th April 2006, 05:15 PM

I had in mind the metal hilt. One was discussed on this forum about 4-5 month ago and I saw a couple of them on ebay in that period. I think that they were antique...

Rick · 10th April 2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I had in mind the metal hilt. One was discussed on this forum about 4-5 month ago and I saw a couple of them on ebay in that period. I think that they were antique...

If I recall correctly the kaskara in the discussion you mentioned was given an 'Arab' origin or style .

A search for it would enlighten us all .

B.I · 10th April 2006, 06:47 PM

i believe the blade to be german and 19thC. i dont normally post opinion in subjects i know nothing about (ie anything non indian :-) but i owned a kaskara in my early collecting days with an identical blade. there was a stamp, which was minute and hidden under one of the langets, easily missed and overlooked. i did the research back then and found the maker. the stamp was a profile of an armoured head (helm). i had the name of the maker somewhere, but have no idea where now.
my blade was almost exact. relatively flexible, single wide fuller which was well executed and very slightly uneven edge, which this one appears to have.
maybe someone can tell the maker from the description i gave (ie 19thC german, closed helm)

Rick · 10th April 2006, 08:33 PM

One can see the mark on the blade of the kaskara that I purchased on the first page of *Sold Items* on Oriental Arms site in the African category (bottom right hand corner) .

katana · 10th April 2006, 11:46 PM

I too followed this auction, e-mailed the seller with various questions, and as mentioned, he seemed to know his stuff. I was curious to the single fuller and lack of engraved symbols, the blade looked too new, do you really think it was a 19c? It certainly looked 'business like'. Other than the 'age issue' I thought it looked a great Kaskara. Was it a good price though?

Rick · 11th April 2006, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I too followed this auction, e-mailed the seller with various questions, and as mentioned, he seemed to know his stuff. I was curious to the single fuller and lack of engraved symbols, the blade looked too new, do you really think it was a 19c? It certainly looked 'business like'. Other than the 'age issue' I thought it looked a great Kaskara. Was it a good price though?

To answer your question in a roundabout way ; when I first started using Ebay in '97 kaskara of all quality levels were fairly common . Nowaday they seem to be getting scarcer and scarcer and are commanding higher prices .
I paid substantially more for my example .

katana · 11th April 2006, 12:21 AM

I must admit I was very keen on bidding, (even though the purse strings are very tight at the moment). Lack of knowledge prevented me taking a gamble, it was the single fuller that put me off, however, now I know about German blades being used and if I knew what I know now.....

I also want to point out what a fantastic forum this is, I have learned alot since joining ( i am afterall a novice

) and am sure I will benefit further as time passes

Jim McDougall · 11th April 2006, 04:51 AM

This kaskara seems indeed of high quality, and characteristic of those found in Darfur (western Sudan) rather than examples used by the Beja (pronounced bay'za) and Hadendoa of the SE Sudan. These tribes also are found well into Eritrea and parts of Ethiopia. In conversations a number of years ago with a man from Darfur, I was told these kaskaras were still held as heirlooms and worn on occasion by tribal elders. It would be extremely difficult to acquire one of these authentic older examples, however, like anything they do come up occasionally. I spoke also quite a few times with a man from Eritrea who was Beja, and he actually had a video of tribal dancing using some of thier edged weapons, including kaskaras. After watching this at full volume for some time, I started to really get into the tribal chants and rhythm, which finally drew my wife into my den to see if I had lost my mind!!

Brian, without checking further into to archival web here I am pretty sure the knights helm was Kirshbaum of Solingen, indeed mid 19th century, and a very prolific supplier of blades to the British ( I have a M1853 with Kirshbaum blade). During the Mahdist period, Darfur was reluctant to participate in the rebellion with the Mahdi, and I believe were somewhat inclined to intrigue with British forces, if that might be a denominator in explaining a German blade via British intermediaries.
In any case, it seems doubtful this would be a Mahdist relic in my opinion, but still an outstanding example of kaskara from Darfur regions.....though with typical trade and diffusion....who knows...maybe a Beja did acquire this weapon...but only distinctly supported provenance could say.

I will once again mention what I have noted in discussions on kaskaras for over seven years now, none of these tribesmen I have spoken with, nor any other Sudanese sources with whom I have consulted, have ever heard of the term 'kaskara'. To them it is simply termed sa'if.

All the best,
Jim

10th April 2006, 06:12 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kaskara http://cgi.ebay.com/SUDANESE-KASKARA...QQcmdZViewItem The seller states that this one was bought in Sudan last year. Questions: 1.Do Bejas carry Kaskaras? 2.Some old Kaskaras have German blades with a single wide fuller (like this one). However, this one has no markings. Were they "polished off" or were they ever present? Local blades usually have 3 narrow fullers. Any knowledge of local blades with a single wide one? 3.Is it still possible to get a really old Kaskara in Sudan? Were high quality Kaskaras still made after Mahdi rebellion? Is there a souvenir sword industry there and, if yes, how lavish these swords are (silverwork)? 4. I remember somebody told me that the rope bound to the handle was used to be wrapped around the wrist of the warrior and the British who brought the trophy Kaskaras to England (after the Mahdi war) cut the swords off the Dervishes' dead bodies. Any truth to it? Why does this one have a cut rope if it never left Sudan and was just bought recently? 5. Is this sword new?

10th April 2006, 01:47 PM	#2
mmontoro Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 91	The blade looks like it is made with more quality than what is usually seen - very knowledgeable buyer, too.

10th April 2006, 02:31 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Egyptian kaskara? I've seen more elaborate kaskaras (such as this one) coming from Egypt...

10th April 2006, 05:02 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I have a kaskara with this type of blade that I purchased from Oriental-Arms . The blade does carry a stamp and is of high quality .

10th April 2006, 05:15 PM	#6
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I had in mind the metal hilt. One was discussed on this forum about 4-5 month ago and I saw a couple of them on ebay in that period. I think that they were antique...

10th April 2006, 06:47 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i believe the blade to be german and 19thC. i dont normally post opinion in subjects i know nothing about (ie anything non indian :-) but i owned a kaskara in my early collecting days with an identical blade. there was a stamp, which was minute and hidden under one of the langets, easily missed and overlooked. i did the research back then and found the maker. the stamp was a profile of an armoured head (helm). i had the name of the maker somewhere, but have no idea where now. my blade was almost exact. relatively flexible, single wide fuller which was well executed and very slightly uneven edge, which this one appears to have. maybe someone can tell the maker from the description i gave (ie 19thC german, closed helm)

10th April 2006, 08:33 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	One can see the mark on the blade of the kaskara that I purchased on the first page of Sold Items on Oriental Arms site in the African category (bottom right hand corner) .

10th April 2006, 11:46 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I too followed this auction, e-mailed the seller with various questions, and as mentioned, he seemed to know his stuff. I was curious to the single fuller and lack of engraved symbols, the blade looked too new, do you really think it was a 19c? It certainly looked 'business like'. Other than the 'age issue' I thought it looked a great Kaskara. Was it a good price though?

11th April 2006, 12:21 AM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I must admit I was very keen on bidding, (even though the purse strings are very tight at the moment). Lack of knowledge prevented me taking a gamble, it was the single fuller that put me off, however, now I know about German blades being used and if I knew what I know now..... I also want to point out what a fantastic forum this is, I have learned alot since joining ( i am afterall a novice ) and am sure I will benefit further as time passes

11th April 2006, 04:51 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	This kaskara seems indeed of high quality, and characteristic of those found in Darfur (western Sudan) rather than examples used by the Beja (pronounced bay'za) and Hadendoa of the SE Sudan. These tribes also are found well into Eritrea and parts of Ethiopia. In conversations a number of years ago with a man from Darfur, I was told these kaskaras were still held as heirlooms and worn on occasion by tribal elders. It would be extremely difficult to acquire one of these authentic older examples, however, like anything they do come up occasionally. I spoke also quite a few times with a man from Eritrea who was Beja, and he actually had a video of tribal dancing using some of thier edged weapons, including kaskaras. After watching this at full volume for some time, I started to really get into the tribal chants and rhythm, which finally drew my wife into my den to see if I had lost my mind!! Brian, without checking further into to archival web here I am pretty sure the knights helm was Kirshbaum of Solingen, indeed mid 19th century, and a very prolific supplier of blades to the British ( I have a M1853 with Kirshbaum blade). During the Mahdist period, Darfur was reluctant to participate in the rebellion with the Mahdi, and I believe were somewhat inclined to intrigue with British forces, if that might be a denominator in explaining a German blade via British intermediaries. In any case, it seems doubtful this would be a Mahdist relic in my opinion, but still an outstanding example of kaskara from Darfur regions.....though with typical trade and diffusion....who knows...maybe a Beja did acquire this weapon...but only distinctly supported provenance could say. I will once again mention what I have noted in discussions on kaskaras for over seven years now, none of these tribesmen I have spoken with, nor any other Sudanese sources with whom I have consulted, have ever heard of the term 'kaskara'. To them it is simply termed sa'if. All the best, Jim