?1900s Indian Army saber?

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 03:32 PM

Not really my thing this but when you have OCD these things happen. Heavy blade, wood grips, leather covered wood scabbard. No marks!! Wide fuller on both sides. Very nice balance to a heavy and quite flexible bladed weapon. Just a little damage to the scabbard tip

. Some of you seem a little keen and knowledgeable about this sort of creation, I do not really go for service stuff so any info about it would be nice to hear.

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 05:53 PM

I got this sword this morning, it was bit of an impulse buy. Now I have had time to look in some books I think it is the Indian Army version of the British Cavalry troopers 1853 saber. Obviously the blade is made to the local fashion.

Rick · 12th August 2006, 06:23 PM

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?
Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty .

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 06:54 PM

The few books I have on military swords only have a slight mention of Indian Army swords except the 1903 or is it 06 pattern adopted by all English speaking countries. I can find no mention of the piece before the false edge. The sword has certainly see some action. Border line ethnographic but tells a story.

Flavio · 12th August 2006, 06:58 PM

Hello Tim, I like it

Lew · 12th August 2006, 07:36 PM

Tim

A nice blend of east and west

The blade seems to be typical tulwar style in design. If you really hate it I would be glad to take it off your hands

Lew

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2006, 08:17 PM

Thanks Lew you are making me feel better for spending money when I really should be thinking about the bloody stupid car. I think I shall hang on to it for the moment. A car does not last long so it can wait a few more weeks, and I hate it anyway. I know there are some nice heavy talwars but this sword is heavier than most one sees.

Tim Simmons · 13th August 2006, 07:59 PM

It seems that Indian Army cavalry swords vary considerably this only represents some. The following pages come from " Pictorial History Swords & Bayonets, R.J.Wilkinson-Latham " He suggests that the three bar hilt took over from the stirrup hilt in 1860. I find it a trifle amusing how authors who were not there and not manufactures come out with such bold and definite opinions.

Some swords and steel scabbards made in the UK. Others were just the sword and Indian made scabbards and some were Indian made swords with the hilts supplied by the UK

spiral · 13th August 2006, 08:12 PM

Actualy Tim I think you may find Robert Wilkinson-Latham was the fifth generation running of his family to be involved with Wilkinson Sword Ltd.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 13th August 2006, 08:19 PM

Yes indeed but they did not make them all and certainly not when he was a boy.

katana · 13th August 2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ?

It obviously was forged during the manufacturing process.......but is it to re-inforce the spine at the point that the back becomes a false edge....I haven't seen this feature before.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 12:11 AM

While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described.
It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production.

This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt.
It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's

This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge.

Most interesting sword!!
Best regards,
JIm

Tim Simmons · 15th August 2006, 09:24 PM

Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2006, 10:03 PM

Hi Tim,
Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province?
I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically.
I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers).

All the best,
Jim

spiral · 15th August 2006, 11:45 PM

On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim.

Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy?

Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point?

Just a few thoughts that popped up.

Spiral

Tim Simmons · 16th August 2006, 06:53 AM

I like the almost "gone native" british officer in this picture of irregular cavalry.

Tim Simmons · 19th August 2006, 09:29 PM

Nice pictures.
www.members.tripod.com/~Glosters/IAcavalry1.htm

Tim Simmons · 21st August 2006, 08:35 PM

I took this sword to a military sword buff and he said it is 100% Indian manufacture just a copy hilt. it also appears that the grip is not wood or leather as on the British swords. What ever it is it is hard and in parts there seems to be something like a grain structure. Could it be stained ivory? That seems rather extravagant but in the late 19th early 20th cent it was used with gay abandon. I am not sure if it is safe to speak like that these days

. I dare not clean a section to look see.

donaghy77 · 29th October 2017, 04:17 PM

Hello, I realise this quite an old thread, but I have just come into possession of the exact same sword and wondered if anyone knew the history of the one in this thread
Thanks

Ian · 29th October 2017, 06:51 PM

Welcome to the forum, donaghy77.

More pictures of this sword would be helpful I think.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2017, 07:09 PM

This was a wonderful thread and good to see it up again,
the M1853 was indeed used as a select pattern for certain units. The Wilkinson Latham book lists these in its survey of chosen types for the units. It is a shame that Mr. Wilkinson Latham has dropped out of the forum scene as SFI has gone defunct.
There is no doubt there are others of this India made pattern out there and he would know of them.

donaghy77 · 31st October 2017, 08:33 PM

Ian

I have just worked out how to add pictures, poor show when a lot of my job involves IT, I hope you like them, I have spoken to Jim who has been brilliant with bringing his encyclopaedic knowledge to bear

RobT · 2nd November 2017, 02:51 AM

Hi All,

I believe the marks on the blade next to the hilt are the Gujarati number 51.

Sincerely,
RobT

donaghy77 · 2nd November 2017, 01:04 PM

Thanks Rob

I think thats right, it would refer to the rack number

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM

Excellent Rob!!!
That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this,
I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers.
This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts.

On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency.
This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905,
The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM

Jim,
Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians.

Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM

I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that.

Sincerely,
RobT

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2017, 01:21 PM

Very good. here we can see the late 19th century Lancers with the same sword. Front row second from the left.

What a shame that the owner or owners after me should damage the scabbard even more rather than try to repair or re-tip with metal.

Tim Simmons · 3rd November 2017, 01:35 PM

WW1 19th lancers. That chap really does carry the sword in question.

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd November 2017, 03:22 PM

Here is another one.Showing the later Major-General Richard Hilton together with some Indian officers. I dont know when the picture was taken, but it was before WWII started.
Richard Hilton did service in India for fifteen years, and was especially fond of working with the Indian regiments.

12th August 2006, 03:32 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	?1900s Indian Army saber? Not really my thing this but when you have OCD these things happen. Heavy blade, wood grips, leather covered wood scabbard. No marks!! Wide fuller on both sides. Very nice balance to a heavy and quite flexible bladed weapon. Just a little damage to the scabbard tip . Some of you seem a little keen and knowledgeable about this sort of creation, I do not really go for service stuff so any info about it would be nice to hear. Attached Images

12th August 2006, 06:23 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Is there a name for this feature on the spine where the false edge begins ? Looks like a good no nonsense weapon Tim; fully functional beauty . Attached Images

13th August 2006, 07:59 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Stuff on Indian Army cavalry swords It seems that Indian Army cavalry swords vary considerably this only represents some. The following pages come from " Pictorial History Swords & Bayonets, R.J.Wilkinson-Latham " He suggests that the three bar hilt took over from the stirrup hilt in 1860. I find it a trifle amusing how authors who were not there and not manufactures come out with such bold and definite opinions. Some swords and steel scabbards made in the UK. Others were just the sword and Indian made scabbards and some were Indian made swords with the hilts supplied by the UK

29th October 2017, 04:17 PM	#19
donaghy77 Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 3	1900s Indian Army Sabre Hello, I realise this quite an old thread, but I have just come into possession of the exact same sword and wondered if anyone knew the history of the one in this thread Thanks

29th October 2017, 06:51 PM	#20
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Welcome to the forum, donaghy77. More pictures of this sword would be helpful I think. Ian Last edited by Ian; 29th October 2017 at 08:36 PM.

12th August 2006, 05:53 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I got this sword this morning, it was bit of an impulse buy. Now I have had time to look in some books I think it is the Indian Army version of the British Cavalry troopers 1853 saber. Obviously the blade is made to the local fashion.

12th August 2006, 06:54 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The few books I have on military swords only have a slight mention of Indian Army swords except the 1903 or is it 06 pattern adopted by all English speaking countries. I can find no mention of the piece before the false edge. The sword has certainly see some action. Border line ethnographic but tells a story.

12th August 2006, 06:58 PM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Tim, I like it

12th August 2006, 07:36 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim A nice blend of east and west The blade seems to be typical tulwar style in design. If you really hate it I would be glad to take it off your hands Lew

12th August 2006, 08:17 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thanks Lew you are making me feel better for spending money when I really should be thinking about the bloody stupid car. I think I shall hang on to it for the moment. A car does not last long so it can wait a few more weeks, and I hate it anyway. I know there are some nice heavy talwars but this sword is heavier than most one sees.

13th August 2006, 08:12 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Actualy Tim I think you may find Robert Wilkinson-Latham was the fifth generation running of his family to be involved with Wilkinson Sword Ltd. Spiral

13th August 2006, 08:19 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yes indeed but they did not make them all and certainly not when he was a boy.

15th August 2006, 12:11 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	While the progression of British military regulation pattern swords was well documented and has very good resources identifying them ("Swords of the British Army" by Robson, the most recent and comprehensive), the swords of the British native cavalry units are only vaguely described. It is true that Wilkinson-Latham is one of the famed sword making dynasty in England, and as others, such as John Wilkinson, who has also written on these weapons, have had considerable resources which describe the historical data involving that firms extensive production. This sword certainly is in the style of the regulation M1853 cavalry sabre, although it is of course not one of the regulation issue examples. There were examples of these produced for native regiments in India, one group having been produced by a Rodwell & Co. I think around the late 19th c. but I do not have details handy at the moment. The typical colonial sabres made in around the 1880's for some of the cavalry units were made in the form known as the 'gothic hilt' and were patterned after the M1821 light cavalry sabre with three bar hilt. It is also known that the stirrup hilt sabres of the M1796 light cavalry sabre, with the hatchet point, were produced also in the latter 19th c. by makers who consigned to supply forces in the Raj, one such firm was J.Bourne & Sons. These stirrup hilt sabres were still in armouries as late as the 1930's This sabre is likely end of 19th c. to early yrs 20th and as noted the 'step' preceding the false edge is most interesting, forming a form of 'choil' on the sharpened back edge. Most interesting sword!! Best regards, JIm

15th August 2006, 09:24 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Jim I can see the feature "choil" working on a knife/ survival knife, being very handy, but I cannot see that function on a sword. Is it possible that the chiol on the sword is more of a sighting device to ensure the best delivery of sword cut. By the way google images "British India army cavalry" some interesting pictures, skinners horse ect.

15th August 2006, 10:03 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Tim, Without martial arts expertise it is difficult for me to offer qualified opinion on practical application of such features, but it would seem most likely it was simply to strengthen the sharpened back edge. It is interesting to see the application of the yelman on what would certainly be a latter 19th century sword blade, at least in the mounts of this example. I am still trying to recall where those other '1853' patterns were used, I think it was Baroda province? I do know that a number of illustrations of British native cavalry did indicate these patterns, but again cannot place specifically. I have always enjoyed this extremely colorful period of cavalry history, and one of my most treasured experiences was interviewing a British brigadier who had led one of the last cavalry charges near the Khyber in the 1930's.He was with a Bengal lancer regiment, and among his swords were one of the stirrup hilted sabres I mentioned (13th Bengal Lancers). All the best, Jim

15th August 2006, 11:45 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	On the Indian/Afghan swords I have handled with this feature it has always struck me that the sweat spot of the blade was just an inch or two below the visible spine projection, so I think your theory could be possible Tim. Another possibility that occors to me is maybe you only want a sword to penetrate to that depth ? any more is a waste of both sword blade & your energy? Perhaps its also like the cross bar on a boar spear? in a more minimal fashion? you dont want a determined but run through man coming at you up the blade beyond that point? Just a few thoughts that popped up. Spiral

16th August 2006, 06:53 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I like the almost "gone native" british officer in this picture of irregular cavalry.

19th August 2006, 09:29 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Nice pictures. www.members.tripod.com/~Glosters/IAcavalry1.htm

21st August 2006, 08:35 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I took this sword to a military sword buff and he said it is 100% Indian manufacture just a copy hilt. it also appears that the grip is not wood or leather as on the British swords. What ever it is it is hard and in parts there seems to be something like a grain structure. Could it be stained ivory? That seems rather extravagant but in the late 19th early 20th cent it was used with gay abandon. I am not sure if it is safe to speak like that these days . I dare not clean a section to look see.

29th October 2017, 07:09 PM	#21
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	This was a wonderful thread and good to see it up again, the M1853 was indeed used as a select pattern for certain units. The Wilkinson Latham book lists these in its survey of chosen types for the units. It is a shame that Mr. Wilkinson Latham has dropped out of the forum scene as SFI has gone defunct. There is no doubt there are others of this India made pattern out there and he would know of them.

31st October 2017, 08:33 PM	#22
donaghy77 Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 3	1900s Indian Army Sabre Ian I have just worked out how to add pictures, poor show when a lot of my job involves IT, I hope you like them, I have spoken to Jim who has been brilliant with bringing his encyclopaedic knowledge to bear Attached Images

2nd November 2017, 02:51 AM	#23
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	51 on Blade Hi All, I believe the marks on the blade next to the hilt are the Gujarati number 51. Sincerely, RobT

2nd November 2017, 01:04 PM	#24
donaghy77 Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 3	51 Thanks Rob I think thats right, it would refer to the rack number

2nd November 2017, 10:35 PM	#25
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Excellent Rob!!! That makes perfect sense!! and thank you for spotting this, I have found that pretty much there were two units using the M1853 pattern hilts per R. Wilkinson-Latham "Pictorial History of Swords and Bayonets" (1973), ...these were one listed as 'Fanes Horse' which is shown as 17th lancers. This unit was situated in Bengal and actually the unit known as Fanes Horse was the 19th Lancers. These were both Bengal units and I have always thought they used the1821 type hilts. On the other one, 31st Duke of Connaughts Own Lancers, which was commanded by the Duke of Connaught, who was also governor of the Bombay Presidency. This huge administrative region of the British Raj, extended from Bombay all the way to Sind which of course included Gujarat mid way in the time period we are considering, c. 1880-1905, The Gujarati numerals would have likely been rack number.

3rd November 2017, 12:37 AM	#26
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	Glad I Could Help Jim, Happy to help out. The same sort of thing goes on with a lot of the Royal Nepalese khukri (see Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walters). The battalion abbreviation plus the battalion unit and weapon numbers are frequently inscribed on the spine. Save for the 6, 7, and 10, the Devangari numbers used on the khukri are pretty much the same as the Gujarati numbers. As an interesting aside, it would appear that the so called Arabic numbers were actually a Hindu invention and that invention also included the concept (and digit) of zero. The Moslems picked-up the numbers from the Hindus and in turn gave them to the Christians. Sincerely, RobT

3rd November 2017, 01:14 AM	#27
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 487	Whoops I meant to say that the Gujarati and Devangari numbers 6, 7, and 9 are dissimilar. Sorry about that. Sincerely, RobT

3rd November 2017, 01:21 PM	#28
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Very good. here we can see the late 19th century Lancers with the same sword. Front row second from the left. What a shame that the owner or owners after me should damage the scabbard even more rather than try to repair or re-tip with metal. Attached Images

3rd November 2017, 01:35 PM	#29
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	WW1 19th lancers. That chap really does carry the sword in question. Attached Images

3rd November 2017, 03:22 PM	#30
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is another one.Showing the later Major-General Richard Hilton together with some Indian officers. I dont know when the picture was taken, but it was before WWII started. Richard Hilton did service in India for fifteen years, and was especially fond of working with the Indian regiments. Attached Images Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 3rd November 2017 at 04:29 PM.