Tulwar for coments, please

[fernando]

I am calling it tulwar, whereas this could be one of its variants.
Blade is 76 cms.(30") in straight line. The width at forte is 33 m/m.(1 1/8").
One of the langets was replaced, i think at the period, by brass brazing ( thanks Spiral for the input).
It has a full patina texture, but i am not certain if the dark ( black ) tone is the original, or somebody's later intervention, to perserve it or show it off.
A yelmen is visible, with a discreete protuberance.
What do you Gentlemen think of this specimen?
Thanks in advance.
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

A wonderful example of what appears to be a tulwar from northwest India regions that is quite likely end of 18th century. It is so hard to really say the age on these, especially from photos, but the sheer simplicity of this piece in the hilt, and the very heavy blade suggests it is indeed a fighting example.
The extremely widening of the blade back is of course what we term the yalman (though it seems there is a degree of dispute on the term), but does reflect influences from much earlier sabre development with nomadic Central Asian tribes. It seems that the feature did not typically stay with most blades found on talwars in the 19th century (there are of course exceptions, especially in very high quality and specially made pieces).

The deep pitting that shows evidence of non uniform pock marking would suggest the integrity of the patination on this sword, but I would defer on that to the more highly trained eyes that often gratefully comment on such matters here. By form itself however, this would seem a good solid example.

It looks wonderful as is Fernando! Please resist the common desire to shine it all up! While there have been some fantastic examples of swords restored here that have endured grinding wheels and terrible overcleaning that were incredibly restored to beautiful condition, this is the one exeption that in my opinion would allow for such measures.

In my opinion, such sound examples of these earlier weapons deserve to wear the patination and darkening they have so honestly earned over so many years (to me it represents a physical manifestation of history but its the romantic in me!).

One thing I always notice on so many talwars is the position of the langet often seems canted to one side and off center. Would this be from the remounting or reworking the weapon? Naturally checking the patination and discolorations etc. for a match would tell more on the age of such work, but could such positioning come from the reseating of the hilt carelessly, or could the position sometimes have been intended? Could striking action cause the hilt to shift later?

Another question, many talwars of the 'standard Indian form hilt' such as this of course exist without knuckleguard. It seems the terms used in Pant may be a bit difficult to apply to particular hilts of specific regions, despite the obvious existence of 'variants' since there was such wide diffusion of components in production. The concept of progressive development does not seem to work either, as the open hilt forms and examples with knuckleguards appear to have existed concurrently and often in common regions.

It has often been suggested, and compellingly, that the addition of the knuckleguard reflected European influence. Since most fighting with the tulwar seems to have been slashing with parrying received by the shield, what would be the purpose of the guard?

[katana]

Another Tulwar Fernando are Tulwars becoming an obsession

Looks to be a nice, honest fighting sword, I agree with Jim (Hi Jim ) don't be tempted to clean it.....part of its charm is its aged look and once the patination is gone, you can never replace it. (well you could send it to China....they seem to be getting rather good at falsely aging antiques )

[fernando]

Thank you so much for your enlightenment, Jim
I must say i have not yet bought this piece; i still try and convince the seller to drop the price down.
However your input gave some enthusiasm towards acquiring this piece.
Meantime i will try and fit into your various remarks on this piece and in general.
Its weight is 1,113 kg. ( almost 2 1/2 pounds ) which is a considerable weight for a sword with the mentioned length.
I know about the opinnion that the knuckle guard could be of European influence, but i find it surprising that Daehnhardt doesn't mention this particularity on the lately discussed book, his main work on the Discoveries period weaponry that the Portuguese faced in Asia, while he is so keen at detailing this kind of things.
It is also a fact that the two thousand years old kanda, has a hanguard ... if this means something for the matter.
I am also thinking that the use of the shield to block the opponent's expectable blow, doens't avoid the eventual entangling of blades, in close moves, with consequent fingers risk.
It's a pitty Homens Espadas e Tomates is not bilingual, like some of this author other works.
I can tell you that the text under picture 51 ( page 109) quotes that such XVI-XVII specimen has its quillons completely turned down in order to better defend the opponents sword slide , while exposing the hand to incoming blows from the side . Already in picture 100 ( page 190) he mentions the existing knuckle guard in a XVII-XVIII century specimen, with the traditional shape of a raising snake, but he doesn't refer any exterior influence for its appearance.
Further he aproaches the traditional Indian fighting system with the sword in one hand and the shield in the other, while the Portuguese, as from the second half XVI century, used the rapier in one hand and the left hand dagger in the other, having preferred this to the previous shield, this system however demanging for fencing training. The resource of the hand dagger was naturally applied at close quarters, but in any case the abandon of the shield made them vulnerable to the enemies arrows, a rather frequent problem.
According to the discussed author, he writes in page 179 that some Indian fencing schools tryed to introduce some European innovations in their swords, like a protecting ring in front of the guard for the index finger. However, with the exception of a few Hugarian examples and one or another experimental specimen, they never managed to alter the style of their sabre or its aplication forms. Nevertheless all of their armies had great experts in the use the said saber, causing lots of casualties in the Portuguese files. But in generical terms, the use of the Muslim sabre with shield was inferior to the Portuguese combination of sword and left hand dagger. This last part could be his patriotic way of view, i am just quoting him.
Concerning your observation on the tulwar frequent offset of he langets, in my humble opinnion i would go for the version of the mount or remount. Maybe this could easier happen with the specimens without rivet fixation, for lack of consequent adjustment rigour. I keep seeing tulwars without rivets, namely the ancient ones, and in my fantasy the rivet addition came at a later stage ... but that could be because i haven't yet seen enough examples to be certain that these were concurrent versions. Mind you, the example i am showing here was surely remounted, as it had a new langet welded ... visibly not the the same piece put back, maybe because it was lost in battle ( to make it romantic ).
Sorry for my impertinence Jim, as if i knew what i am talking about. I expect your usual tolerance.
Kind regards
fernando

[ward]

This is a pretty generic example. If I may suggest there are much better examples in better condition out there. I beleive your money would be well spent on upgrading. Quality over quantity. No offence meant just a humble suggestion.

[fernando]

Hi Ward
I sincerly thank you for the advice.
Kindest regards
fernando

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for your excellent response in kind!!! I really appreciate you going into detail with your very well placed observations, and think you are pretty much on target mostly. I am not too sure about the khanda though, I think the early examples seen iconographically are open hilt, but I do agree the knuckleguard seems likely pre European contact or outside that particular influence. The said influence may have reinforced the use of this element already in place, but more specific research needed.

Very good points on the Portuguese fencing styles in comparison to that of Indian, and the point that even with shields used to receive blows, the dynamics of close combat would invariably result in blade to blade contact. In that case, one certainly would need some protection.

Possibly the open hilt talwars were intended for court wear? But then even these occur in munitions grade, fighting use weapons.

I think what you say on the angle of the langet, and of course it might have been rewelded as you suggest, these weapons were often 'in the shop' during thier working life!

Ward, I agree with your note that this is a 'generic' example, but what I had noted was that was the beauty of it, its a good example of a sword not suggesting having been 'worked over'. I believe it would be good to use disgression on the price. I actually learned to favor these weathered and worn examples for thier integrity, but I admit a lot of it was my budget too!
To me having a sound representative example that would not have been worthy of tampering was what I needed for study. These I viewed as solid pieces of history.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fernando,

A very good choice, starting to collect Indian.

When you regard an Indian sword, you should not compare it to European swords, although there was an influence, but this came from many other countries as well. You should look at it as an Indian sword, and try to compare it to other Indian swords, more than to European swords.

It is, no doubt, a fighting sword, and the repair, which on the picture, seems to be old, would not bother me. It is interesting to see the fuller placed low on the blade, which is unusual.

[fernando]

Hi Jens,
Thank you so much for your observations,which i will duly note.
fernando

[fernando]

Hi Jim

Thanks a lot for your kind words

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I really appreciate you going into detail with your very well placed observations, and think you are pretty much on target mostly.Jim

No need to exagerate, though
Any grade above the bottom of ignorance, is already an enthusiasting prize for me

[ariel]

Just a quick note: the ring on Polish-Hungarian sabers was not for the index finger, but for the thumb. It greatly improved blade control while the thumb was protected. This innovation was later adopted by other European militaries.
Hooking the index finger into some retro-handguard loop would conceivably ease the thrusting control, but the sabers were for slashing.

[fernando]

Hi Ariel
Quite understood.
However i don't think this author would confuse saber inner guard thumb (polegar) ring, with index (indicador) finger protection ring in front of guard. Also he puts a few "Hungarian examples" in paralel with "one or another (Indian) experiment", as a failled intention to alter the ( Indian) saber style or/and its aplication form. There is no doubt of what he talks about; whether these things existed, it's another story . As we say over here, i am selling it for the price i bought it .
fernando

[fernando]

I have decided to buy the tulwar.
To smoothen the price, i had to swap a silver ball pen i didn't use.
The blade is quite thick, some period sharpening is noticed, the patina is quite intense. It realy looks like a real fighting piece.
There isn't much to add in terms of pictures; i just took some more close ups of the langet repair, which i find most reasonable for the period.
But while i was considering what pictures to take, my cat Adrian decided to come around and fell asleep right there. It just reminded me that the Prophet Mohamed once, wanting to stand up from his bed, has cut off a part of his jelaba sleeve, to avoid disturbing his cat's sleep.
All the best

[Jim McDougall]

What a fantastic photo Fernando! A wonderfully peaceful and content cat lying asleep next to a beautifully weathered and worn fighting talwar, terrific context. If there were a historic edged weapons calandar this is a perfect example for the illustrations.

The talwar is even better than previously thought, I truly love that heavy patination. Thank you again for sharing this very nice conquest of yours