18 CENTURY CHINESE JIAN

VANDOO · 14th April 2007, 05:14 AM

A JIAN JUST CLOSED ON EBAY RESERVE NOT MET #290102979200 . IT IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN I HAVE SEEN THE BLADE HAS ENGRAVING ALL OVER IT MUCH LIKE DHA TEMPLE SWORDS OR LODGE SWORDS ECT. I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THAT TYPE STUFF ON CHINESE JIAN IN THE PAST. DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY OPINIONS IF IT IS REALLY WHAT IT IS REPRESENTED AS OR SOMETHING ELSE?

Bill M · 14th April 2007, 03:02 PM

IMHO, it looks -- non-traditional.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...102979200&rd=1

The point is not usual, the blade is unusually wide -- and very long- and the engraving and inlay is something I have never seen on a Jian. Jian are usually rather plain.

I would hazard a guess that it was made for a tourist.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Nick Wardigo · 14th April 2007, 03:43 PM

I've seen quite a few of these over the years (in his description, the seller even mentions that he sold an identical sword some time ago). Occasionally, one sees these as a set of double swords (shuang jian), and there's even one pictured in SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS with a description that has a few errors, which may contribute to the high prices these swords generally get on places like eBay.

First, the book states that the grips are ivory, and they are bone on every single example I have ever seen. Second, it states that the decoration is inlay, but it is actually overlay, that is, the surface has been scored and silver wire pounded into it (similar to koftgari, but of generally lower quality). Third, it dates the sword to the Qianlong period, pointing out the Qianlong seal on the blade. These seals are fake (ALL of these swords have them), and even a glance at any of the Qianlong swords in the Forbidden City or the Mussee de l'Armee in Paris will verify the vast difference in workmanship between these weapons and a genuine Imperial jian from the 18th century.

I have never seen one of these swords with a folded steel construction nor an inserted or hardened edge. There may be some age to them, but certainly not 18th century (I'd hesitate to date them as older than 100 years, and I think that's being generous). I can't speak to how these things would perform for a martial artist, but in my opinion, these were made exclusively for the tourist trade.

VANDOO · 14th April 2007, 06:04 PM

I SUSPECTED IT WAS YET ANOTHER CHINESE REPLICA OF LESS THAN THE BEST WORKMANSHIP BEING SOLD AS A OLD ONE. BUT NOT HAVING HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE WITH THEM POSTED TO SEE IF SOMEONE KNEW MUCH ABOUT THEM. I HOPE THE EXCELLENT REPLYS MAY SAVE SOMEONE FROM GETTING TAKEN.

josh stout · 20th April 2007, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I SUSPECTED IT WAS YET ANOTHER CHINESE REPLICA OF LESS THAN THE BEST WORKMANSHIP BEING SOLD AS A OLD ONE. BUT NOT HAVING HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE WITH THEM POSTED TO SEE IF SOMEONE KNEW MUCH ABOUT THEM. I HOPE THE EXCELLENT REPLYS MAY SAVE SOMEONE FROM GETTING TAKEN.

Someone got seriously taken. But then, an antique is worth what someone will pay for it. If they all go for $1000+ and we say they are worth $100 if that, what does that mean?
Josh

Lew · 20th April 2007, 09:28 PM

1940s-50s replica.

Lew

David · 21st April 2007, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

Someone got seriously taken. But then, an antique is worth what someone will pay for it. If they all go for $1000+ and we say they are worth $100 if that, what does that mean?
Josh

It looks like this auction didn't hit the reserve price, so no one got taken here...except, perhaps, the seller.

Spunjer · 21st April 2007, 03:59 PM

maybe the seller can chime in???

josh stout · 23rd April 2007, 05:12 PM

I didn't notice at first that the reserve was not met. I guess the seller got greedy when the first sword he put up went for over $2000, about ten times what it is worth. Giving the seller the benefit of the doubt, maybe the reserve means he thinks the piece is actually worth the price he is asking

Josh

Lew · 23rd April 2007, 05:26 PM

I happen to know the seller and have been to his home. He is a pretty honest person but he is not an expert in all fields of collecting edged weapons. I really feel that he thought these were the real deal.

Lew

14th April 2007, 05:14 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	18 CENTURY CHINESE JIAN A JIAN JUST CLOSED ON EBAY RESERVE NOT MET #290102979200 . IT IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN I HAVE SEEN THE BLADE HAS ENGRAVING ALL OVER IT MUCH LIKE DHA TEMPLE SWORDS OR LODGE SWORDS ECT. I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THAT TYPE STUFF ON CHINESE JIAN IN THE PAST. DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY OPINIONS IF IT IS REALLY WHAT IT IS REPRESENTED AS OR SOMETHING ELSE?

14th April 2007, 03:02 PM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	IMHO, it looks -- non-traditional. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...102979200&rd=1 The point is not usual, the blade is unusually wide -- and very long- and the engraving and inlay is something I have never seen on a Jian. Jian are usually rather plain. I would hazard a guess that it was made for a tourist. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Last edited by Bill Marsh; 14th April 2007 at 04:14 PM.

14th April 2007, 03:43 PM	#3
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	I've seen quite a few of these over the years (in his description, the seller even mentions that he sold an identical sword some time ago). Occasionally, one sees these as a set of double swords (shuang jian), and there's even one pictured in SWORDS AND HILT WEAPONS with a description that has a few errors, which may contribute to the high prices these swords generally get on places like eBay. First, the book states that the grips are ivory, and they are bone on every single example I have ever seen. Second, it states that the decoration is inlay, but it is actually overlay, that is, the surface has been scored and silver wire pounded into it (similar to koftgari, but of generally lower quality). Third, it dates the sword to the Qianlong period, pointing out the Qianlong seal on the blade. These seals are fake (ALL of these swords have them), and even a glance at any of the Qianlong swords in the Forbidden City or the Mussee de l'Armee in Paris will verify the vast difference in workmanship between these weapons and a genuine Imperial jian from the 18th century. I have never seen one of these swords with a folded steel construction nor an inserted or hardened edge. There may be some age to them, but certainly not 18th century (I'd hesitate to date them as older than 100 years, and I think that's being generous). I can't speak to how these things would perform for a martial artist, but in my opinion, these were made exclusively for the tourist trade.

14th April 2007, 06:04 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SUSPECTED IT WAS YET ANOTHER CHINESE REPLICA OF LESS THAN THE BEST WORKMANSHIP BEING SOLD AS A OLD ONE. BUT NOT HAVING HAD MUCH EXPERIENCE WITH THEM POSTED TO SEE IF SOMEONE KNEW MUCH ABOUT THEM. I HOPE THE EXCELLENT REPLYS MAY SAVE SOMEONE FROM GETTING TAKEN.

20th April 2007, 09:28 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	1940s-50s replica. Lew

21st April 2007, 03:59 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	maybe the seller can chime in???

23rd April 2007, 05:12 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I didn't notice at first that the reserve was not met. I guess the seller got greedy when the first sword he put up went for over $2000, about ten times what it is worth. Giving the seller the benefit of the doubt, maybe the reserve means he thinks the piece is actually worth the price he is asking Josh

23rd April 2007, 05:26 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I happen to know the seller and have been to his home. He is a pretty honest person but he is not an expert in all fields of collecting edged weapons. I really feel that he thought these were the real deal. Lew