Indian "executioner" Tulwar

ariel · 10th April 2006, 05:39 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting
I cannot believe it was used for execution (decapitation?) purpose. Executioner swords all over the world had two-handed grips and the T-spine is counterproductive on a purely slashing sword. It would only impede a clean cut-through action of decapitation.
It also does not look like a Kirach.
Strangely, it looks like a monstrous Khyber, but I have never seen Khybers with Tulwar handles and, especially, of these dimensions.
The blade looks like Shams damascus. The handguard ends in a "tiger head" : Tippoo?
What is it?

Lew · 10th April 2006, 03:01 PM

Ariel

This not an INDIAN TULWAR EXECUTIONERS SWORD it's just a large tulwar hilted salawar yatagan. Tega I thought were used to remove heads? They have very heavy blades and they seem more suited for that job. As far as this blade being made from sham wootz I just can't tell the blade is all scratched up it just maybe a poor cleaning job on the blade?

Lew

RobT · 11th April 2006, 03:46 AM

ariel,
Figiel (On Damascus Steel) page 69 shows a tulwar hilted Khyber knife with an overall length of 35".
Sincerely,
RobT

PUFF · 11th April 2006, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting
I cannot believe it was used for execution (decapitation?) purpose. Executioner swords all over the world had two-handed grips and the T-spine is counterproductive on a purely slashing sword. It would only impede a clean cut-through action of decapitation.

Thai executioner always use only one-handed Dahb.

And here are their "tools". (sorry that the page 's in Thai)
http://www.correct.go.th/mu/index5.html

Titus Pullo · 11th April 2006, 06:06 AM

Nice link, PUFF! Thanks!

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2006, 12:54 AM

Very unusual 'hybrid'. Exactly as noted, this is the blade of a Khyber knife (Salawar yatahan) from typically Afridi and associated tribes of Khyber regions. I personally have never seen a tulwar hilt mounted on one of these, however during the British Raj, the armourers there became quite creative. As we have seen in previous posts of the last couple of years these blades have been mounted in the 'Anglo-Afghan' hilts of Afghan army sabres from end of the 19th century, but it seems doubtful such a blade would have been used in India for a tulwar . The 'executioner' denominator is often imaginitive and often appled to any Oriental sword with exaggerated proportioned blades.
Thus, it is possible that this sword may have been put together in the Northwest Frontier sometime in the early 20th century, but it is completely atypical of the swords usually used in those regions.
All the best,
Jim

BluErf · 17th April 2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Thai executioner always use only one-handed Dahb.

And here are their "tools". (sorry that the page 's in Thai)
http://www.correct.go.th/mu/index5.html

I saw the huge cleaver in the webpage. When do the executioners use that cleaver, and when do they use the darb?

Valjhun · 17th April 2006, 07:37 PM

If we stick with the topic. It is a rehilted khyber. Thoose are not rare at all. In the anglo afgan war, brittains employed indian sepoys for fighting the afgans. Think about some looted tulwar, wich hilt was used for rehilting a khyber blade. I can immagine that this was done frequently during thoose years. Take a look at page 243 of Tirri's book.

Tim Simmons · 17th April 2006, 09:56 PM

These talwar hilted Khyber knives worry me. I am sure weapons were regularly reused and salvaged. I once had one where the tang had a screw thread cut into it and the handle had been tapped, just all a little fishy and to my mind the doubt would far outweigh the cost of this one.

Jim McDougall · 18th April 2006, 04:43 AM

Hi Tim,
That what what I was thinking as well, and although I noted the 'creativity' of the armourers of the Northwest Frontier, most Afghans were rather substantial physically and the typically small tulwar and restrictive tulwar hilts would not have agreed with them. By the same token, the Indian warriors of the region, favored slashing blades of sabres, and these heavy Khyber blades would not have been favored. Therefore, this paradoxical example seems unlikely for use, however it does present a rather attractive appearance for souvenier hunters possibly of the Raj period.
Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 18th April 2006, 05:04 AM

here is a true Indian Executioner sword from Leeds Armoury ( I was the photographer, and Richard Avedon I am emphatically not!)
Look at the length of the handle permitting two-hand grip in a multitude of positions, smooth blade without any T-spine, and economical design: short and heavy blade.

Titus Pullo · 18th April 2006, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I saw the huge cleaver in the webpage. When do the executioners use that cleaver, and when do they use the darb?

I read the writing. I think it's for cutting off the feet so that the rope can be taken off after the person has been excecuted. The rope is there to hold the person down tightly, while the ritual dance is being perform.

ariel · 18th April 2006, 01:39 PM

You want to tell us that there were different implements for each stage of execution? Why didn't they use the same Dha (Darb, Dahb

)to cut the rope afterwards? Any ritual significance?

PUFF · 18th April 2006, 01:59 PM

Nah, not for cutting the rope. But for cleaving the feet.

In some case, the criminal have to wear chain/ring (seems to be hammered in place, no lock, no key). And cutting the feet off seems to be easier than hammering it out.

Dahb 's a weapon and it 's considered to be too high for such purpose. That 's why they use a meat cleaver.

PS: My appologies for being off topic again

10th April 2006, 05:39 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian "executioner" Tulwar http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting I cannot believe it was used for execution (decapitation?) purpose. Executioner swords all over the world had two-handed grips and the T-spine is counterproductive on a purely slashing sword. It would only impede a clean cut-through action of decapitation. It also does not look like a Kirach. Strangely, it looks like a monstrous Khyber, but I have never seen Khybers with Tulwar handles and, especially, of these dimensions. The blade looks like Shams damascus. The handguard ends in a "tiger head" : Tippoo? What is it?

11th April 2006, 03:46 AM	#3
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Figiel pg 69 ariel, Figiel (On Damascus Steel) page 69 shows a tulwar hilted Khyber knife with an overall length of 35". Sincerely, RobT

18th April 2006, 05:04 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	here is a true Indian Executioner sword from Leeds Armoury ( I was the photographer, and Richard Avedon I am emphatically not!) Look at the length of the handle permitting two-hand grip in a multitude of positions, smooth blade without any T-spine, and economical design: short and heavy blade. Attached Images

10th April 2006, 03:01 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ariel This not an INDIAN TULWAR EXECUTIONERS SWORD it's just a large tulwar hilted salawar yatagan. Tega I thought were used to remove heads? They have very heavy blades and they seem more suited for that job. As far as this blade being made from sham wootz I just can't tell the blade is all scratched up it just maybe a poor cleaning job on the blade? Lew

11th April 2006, 06:06 AM	#5
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Nice link, PUFF! Thanks!

17th April 2006, 12:54 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Very unusual 'hybrid'. Exactly as noted, this is the blade of a Khyber knife (Salawar yatahan) from typically Afridi and associated tribes of Khyber regions. I personally have never seen a tulwar hilt mounted on one of these, however during the British Raj, the armourers there became quite creative. As we have seen in previous posts of the last couple of years these blades have been mounted in the 'Anglo-Afghan' hilts of Afghan army sabres from end of the 19th century, but it seems doubtful such a blade would have been used in India for a tulwar . The 'executioner' denominator is often imaginitive and often appled to any Oriental sword with exaggerated proportioned blades. Thus, it is possible that this sword may have been put together in the Northwest Frontier sometime in the early 20th century, but it is completely atypical of the swords usually used in those regions. All the best, Jim

17th April 2006, 07:37 PM	#8
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	If we stick with the topic. It is a rehilted khyber. Thoose are not rare at all. In the anglo afgan war, brittains employed indian sepoys for fighting the afgans. Think about some looted tulwar, wich hilt was used for rehilting a khyber blade. I can immagine that this was done frequently during thoose years. Take a look at page 243 of Tirri's book.

17th April 2006, 09:56 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	These talwar hilted Khyber knives worry me. I am sure weapons were regularly reused and salvaged. I once had one where the tang had a screw thread cut into it and the handle had been tapped, just all a little fishy and to my mind the doubt would far outweigh the cost of this one.

18th April 2006, 04:43 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	Hi Tim, That what what I was thinking as well, and although I noted the 'creativity' of the armourers of the Northwest Frontier, most Afghans were rather substantial physically and the typically small tulwar and restrictive tulwar hilts would not have agreed with them. By the same token, the Indian warriors of the region, favored slashing blades of sabres, and these heavy Khyber blades would not have been favored. Therefore, this paradoxical example seems unlikely for use, however it does present a rather attractive appearance for souvenier hunters possibly of the Raj period. Best regards, Jim

18th April 2006, 01:39 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You want to tell us that there were different implements for each stage of execution? Why didn't they use the same Dha (Darb, Dahb )to cut the rope afterwards? Any ritual significance?

18th April 2006, 01:59 PM	#14
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Nah, not for cutting the rope. But for cleaving the feet. In some case, the criminal have to wear chain/ring (seems to be hammered in place, no lock, no key). And cutting the feet off seems to be easier than hammering it out. Dahb 's a weapon and it 's considered to be too high for such purpose. That 's why they use a meat cleaver. PS: My appologies for being off topic again