My Haladie

[sailorjohn]

I have, what I believe is, a Haladie. Digital photographs are attached. I obtained this Haladie in Lebanon in 1983. While Haladies typically come from Syria, Iran and Sudan, given the timing and location of my obtaining this one, I assume it is of either Iranian or Syrian origin. [edit]information about this specific piece. Thanks very much.

[Rick]

Did you have trouble uploading pictures ?

Please read the welcome email you received when you were registered .

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Sailorjohn,
I saw this interesting haladie posted elsewhere, and Im really glad you posted it here!! Welcome to our forum.
While awaiting posting the pictures, I will say that while the haladie is indeed found in Syria and in the Sudan, it is actually a weapon that appears to have come out of India and known to have been used by Rajputs.

In Stone, he does refer to this as 'the Syrian knife' but the weapon seems to have come from the madu madu of India, once made of a pair of buffalo horns and eventually using steel blades made following that shape.

The boldly etched 'thuluth' calligraphy on the blades of your example suggest that it is from the Sudan, where these and many edged weapons were decorated in this way from the Mahdist period and somewhat in the years to follow.

Let me know if I can help with pictures, send me a PM.

All the best,
Jim

[Lee]

...adding photographs

[Devadatta]

Seems for me Sudanese

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Seems for me Sudanese

Thanks for agreeing with me Davadetta, thats exactly what it is.

[Lew]

Yes I also say Sudanese but I have never seen one with a brass hilt? Funny I have never seen a photo of any Sudanese warrior carrying one?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Lew

Yes I also say Sudanese but I have never seen one with a brass hilt? Funny I have never seen a photo of any Sudanese warrior carrying one?

It is interesting that there were Mahdist kaskaras which sometimes had brass rather than iron crossguards. I was once told that this quite possibly could have had something to do with the superstitions that existed in Saharan regions and probably extended into Sudan concerning iron. While iron had connections with death, the converse was true of brass. It would be interesting to look further into that perspective....as to the use of the haladie, I am under the impression they were status type weapons to ranking tribal figures and the hilts were as noted, often horn or even ivory.
They may have been a symbol of rank, and used in the manner of the alem during battle, more research required

[sailorjohn]

Several members seem to think it is Sudanese. One suggested that the brass hilt had some significance. If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

[Lew]

Originally Posted by sailorjohn

If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

John

We absolutely do not quote prices on this forum. Please read the rules.

Lew

8. APPRAISALS

Public appraisals are not permitted on these fora. However, if you would like an appraisal of an item's value or market conditions, please request that other members contact you with that information via email or PM.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by sailorjohn

Several members seem to think it is Sudanese. One suggested that the brass hilt had some significance. If anybody has some idea of what such a Haladie might be worth, I would appreciate the opinion. Thanks

It is I, the phantom of the invisible post who mentioned that brass might have significance. There is a secret method of scrolling upward on the threads to reveal what the people have said before. The reason that the mystical oracle have said it is Sudanese, is because it is, and these notations are also stated in previous posts. The system works much like other forums, and the same kinds of rules on appraisals apply...neat huh!!?

[Tim Simmons]

It appears to have all the signs collectors might consider as Mahdist Sudan. I am little unsure.

I really do not want to be a party pooper but this does look somewhat latter.

That is also assuming Sudan as in Omderman. I just have the feeling that to much is missing even for peasants at the time of conflict.

[Jim McDougall]

Ahah! the spectre of doubt has been detected in the decree of Sudanese origin for this weapon, heavily etched in thuluth script as many Sudanese weapons, especially kaskara, are.

I have seen similar script on the 'Sword of Byajidda' of Nigeria, but as discussed in Bivar (op.cit.1964) this seems one of a number of weapons which are believed to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It is noted that the elongated 'naskhi' script evolved into the 'thuluth' style of Mamluk calligraphy in of course Egypt. The Mamluk presence in Egypt until early 19th century movements into the Sudan may account for the presence of this type of script which became well known with the Mahdist Revolts 1883-1898, and perhaps even earlier as the movement developed in the 1870s.

Obviously the Mamluk heritage is well known in Syria, and Stone calls the 'haladie' the Syrian knife, and as Mamluks were of course present in Egypt under Ottoman rule, but it seems predominantly that their presence in the Sudan set the course for this broad stroke Islamic script.

Omdurman was of course the Mahdist capital of the Sudan.

[Tim Simmons]

Undoubtedly there are Mahdist items with similar etched script. However I do not think it is unreasonable to question the orign of much weaponary called Sudan as in Omdurman. I suspect that there were centres of Huasa and Fulani production in Emirates and city states like Daura, Kano, Bornu and Sokoto. Far form Omdurman and indeed the nile. It is possible that items may predate Omdurman by many dacades, expressing earlier jihad.

[Jim McDougall]

One of my first kaskaras was obtained in about 1975, and the blade was completely covered in acid etched 'thuluth' script. This began a fasciation with the weapons of the Sudan which for me continues to this day. In those years I discovered that along with kaskara blades, there were many forms of arms decorated with this broad calligraphy, and all were attributed to the Mahdist Sudan.

In the reference from which pages are illustrated (A.D.H.Bivar, "Nigerian Panoply" 1964) the author discusses the sword illustrated in the previous post, the "Sword of Bayajidda', and notes the perplexing inscriptions on the blade. He notes that it is "...of a group of weapons which seem to originate in the Nilotic Sudan. It does not seem possible to locate the workshop more precisely, but all are likely to predate the rise of Khartoum and Omdurman in the 19th century".
Bivar also notes that of this group of weapons that at least two are documented as being from the Sudan, one from Khartoum found among 'Dervish' weapons after the campaigns, and that the script in the inscriptions on the Sudanese weapons compares identically to that on the Sword of Bayajidda.

The use of the 'thuluth' type calligraphy by the Mamluks is well known, and that it was imitated by workmen on weapons in the Sudan, and reflected certain errors with a degree of consistancy. It is proposed that these were the result of that imitation of the styles copied from Mamluk examples, and became popularly added to weapons in Sudanese regions earlier in the 19th century.

Returning to the 'thuluth' calligraphy on the kaskara, in Briggs, the example of kaskara he illustrates and captions as 'Hausa' the thuluth calligraphy covers the blade. It should be noted that while Hausa tribes (also often armourers) were from Nigeria, their habitats extended also as far as Chad and the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan (to differentiate from Nigeria and regions often termed the Western Sudan).

In the time I have studied Sudanese and African weapons, the only thuluth covered examples have all been attributed to the Sudan, and though Mahdist period was presumed, naturally as shown, they could well have predated it.
The only other thuluth covered example I have seen from elsewhere is the Sword of Bayidda previously illustrated, and as noted, it is presumed to have originated in the Nilotic Sudan.
I have seen many examples of haladie, typically with horn or ivory grips, and virually every example has had the blades covered in thuluth, and all were from the Sudan. I have seen many examples of thuluth covered kaskara and dagger blades covered in thuluth, all from the Sudan.
I have actually never seen a haladie from any other region in Africa except the Sudan, though I would not be surprised to see examples from Mamluk Egypt.

The trade routes moving westward may very well have taken blades and weapons through Chad and into Nigeria from the Sudan, but it is my understanding that the scripts used there would have been different, probably of Maghribi or other style. It has always been curious to me that the use of the kaskara never really reached westward into Nigeria and West Africa, and there its broadsword cousin, the takouba, reigned. The Fulani of course used the takouba, along with the Tuareg, and as far as I know, these blades were never inscribed in this manner.

As I have noted, this has been a keen area of interest for me for many years, and Im glad to have the opportunity to discuss my perception on these fascinating weapons. I agree very much, it is not at all unreasonable to question attributing weapons to a particular region, and these are the factors considered in my thoughts on them. I would appreciate those of others as well, and always look forward to new perspective.

[Tim Simmons]

Extracts from "Warfare in the Sokoto Caliphate" I will add more on munitons trade route and there disruption latter {firearms and gunpowder}.

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely fascinating and wonderful text! It is always great to see good documented material describing the weapons and characteristics. This pretty much confirms that many of the swords (takouba) were locally made. While takouba often carried trade blades, it is clear that many of the blades that were of characteristic form typically with the central fullers and crescent moon markings were produced in these northern regions. It seems also that the predominant tribal group producing weapons were the Hausa.

The interesting link is to Briggs showing the kaskara blade covered in thuluth as a Hausa weapon. The question would be, would this indicate a Hausa weapon from Nigeria, or would it be Hausa from other domiciles to the east including Chad or the Nilotic Sudan. If the Hausas did use thuluth covered kaskara, could this have been as far westward as Nigeria?
We know the takouba was the predominant broadsword in Saharan regions with the Tuareg, as well as Fulani, and that Hausas were among the swordsmiths who produced them.....but what of the kaskara? there seem to be no accountable references or indications to suggest that kaskaras were among swords used in Nigeria.
That is, unless the drawing in Briggs of the 'Hausa' kaskara might carry a subtle clue....looking carefully amidst the thuluth script, one can see the distinct dual crescent moons characteristic on the Saharan takoubas.
Here can be seen the signal of Hausa provenance.

This leaves us with the same dilemma however, could this kaskara be of Hausa production from the Nigerian regions, or from Hausa smiths to the east who might have come there from Nigeria carrying traditional blade marking symbols in thier product? Since takouba blades are made by Hausas in many cases in Nigerian and Saharan regions, and as far as I know, none carry the acid etched thuluth decoration, I am inclined to believe that the kaskara would have been of the former.

So the next question is, why is thuluth seen on the Sword of Bayajidda? It would seem because, as Bivar has suggested, the blade was imported from the east, probably Nilotic Sudanese regions.

Returning to the original weapon discussed on this thread, the haladie, my perception of the evidence at hand is that while thuluth inscriptions are seen on at least one of the Nigerian regalia swords, it was not applied by Nigerian smiths. Since neither the kaskara (as seen attributed to the Hausa in some cases with thuluth, but probably from eastern tribal units) nor the haladie, are weapons found in Nigerian weaponry, but are profusely found among that of the Nilotic Sudan, then the Sudanese attribution is most plausibly correct.

Could either of these type weapons have been brought into Nigeria via the constant trade routes that are well known? Absolutely, but on a singular basis, much as the examples that include the blade on the Sword of Bayajidda. But incidental examples of a particular weapon form found in an incongruent region do not expand the attribution of that weapon form into that region.

As always, my opinions and perceptions, and always looking forward to hearing other views and thoughts. In the meantime, I would like to thank Tim for adding these outstanding references to carry forward the discussion.

[Tim Simmons]

Obviously the real situation was more complicated than can be shown with these extracts but they are a pointer to the politcal embargos of the time. The situation was to change in the last quarter of the 19th century. Indeed the Emir of Sokoto was strongly urged by his merchants to import more guns in preperation to square up to the British in the very early 20th century.

[Tim Simmons]

A route not mentioned before.

[Iain]

Few things I'd bring up, I don't think the half moon marks are indicative of takouba over kaskara - they appear on plenty of kaskara and I don't think signal Hausa providence particularly - unless I misunderstood your point Jim?

Regarding the sword of Bayajidda I also find it a bit confusing - but wouldn't agree it was imported from the east necessarily. I tend to think that the lack of presence of the kaskara in Nigeria and surrounding areas is indicative of the widespread local manufacture of takouba blades. Otherwise I would expect to see Sudanese kaskara blades in takouba mounts fairly frequently.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than myself could comment on the religious impact of the Mahdi movement in wider Islamic Africa. Such events seem far more likely a reason for the presence of thuluth on the Bayajidda sword then an imported Sudanese blade in a non Sudanese form?

Just a few thoughts, from someone who sadly has less reference material at hand than the rest of you...

Feel free to correct my ramblings.

[Tim Simmons]

This is a very good starting point, but you had better be quick. One paper back copy on UK Amazon. "History of Nigeria, Sir Alan Burns"

[Tim Simmons]

May be of some interest to link this thread. Ottoman infleunce {Tripoli, Chad, Sudan} ending at the start of ww1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=bayonet

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent points you guys!!! This is really great to be able to discuss these very complex areas of North African history, which is far underresearched with reference material very esoteric. Thank you Tim for sharing and highlighting these references on the Sokoto Caliphate, and it is interesting to see how colonialism and geopolitical matters had such dramatic impact.

Ispn, the reference to half moon markings are to the paired crescent moons as seen on takouba, usually at the base of the outside fullers in the center of the blade. There are indeed crescent moons on many kaskaras but they are the large man in the moon in the astral grouping with sun and star, in most of those I have seen. As noted the small paired crescent are indeed in some kaskara, as seen by the Briggs illustration, but uncommon as far as I know.
I believe the Hausa attribution in Briggs is based on the presumption that a great number of the smiths were Hausa.

The presence of thuluth was more attributed to Mamluk influence, which of course could have moved westward through trade as well as the slaving activity which the Mamluks were active in Sudan with. The takouba blade form is somewhat different in being somewhat lighter blades, and it is worthy of note that they invariably seem to have rounded tip. The kaskara blades have more of an angled spear type point typically.

The Bayajidda sword seems to have the wider at the shoulder and gradual parallel taper to the point. There are Sudanese short swords of this type in the northern regions near Dongola and similar variations. While Bivar tries to allude to much earlier period for the sword than it probably is, the likelihood of its provenance from the east still seems good.

I am of the impression that the Mahdist movement in the Sudan was quite an independant situation from the numerous instances of Jihad in many of the Caliphates and kingdoms to the west. Even considerable resistance to involvement was known in Darfur, where some tribal groups moved into remote regions avoiding contact. I read of this some time ago in I believe it was "Prisoners of the Mahdi" , Byron Farwell. As far as the thuluth type of script, I think we need to look further into the types of calligraphy that would have been used in Nigeria and West African regions, and try to find other examples of weapons from those regions with thuluth inscriptions. The Bayajidda sword is quite frankly, the only one I know of. If Mamluk influence was so prevalent in western Sudanese regions, I would expect to see this broad and distinct script on much of the material culture metalwork.

I really appreciate you guys discussing this with me here. It really helps to have input on ideas that I have formed from resources and things I have seen which may of course not be entirely correct. That is why it is so imortant to have other perspective, not so anyone can be more right than the other, but so we all gain knoeledge together. Thank you so much, and I hope others will join in as well.

All best regards,
Jim

[Iain]

Hi Jim,

Maybe I've only been looking at the unusual ones... But I've seen the half moon marks on quite a few kaskara. Just a few examples I quickly turned up online (note for moderators: the links to auction sites are all for expired auctions, nothing active).

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6221477

http://www.thomasdelmar.com/catalogu...1205/lot27.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=109

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3436

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4018

Now, one thing I notice is all the blades I turned up with the half moons on kaskara are the triple fullered variety more similar to takouba blades - this could support the idea that perhaps there a Hausa connection to these examples? Maybe an easy way to differentiate between the Darfur examples? I really haven't handled enough kaskara to do more than just throw it out as a thought.

About other blades exhibiting thuluth script... Oddly I stumbled yesterday across a record in the American Museum of Natural History collections for a kaskara attributed as Tuareg with thuluth. THe attribution is directly in the collection notes, very odd.

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...from_anthro=no

I would probably discount this attribution entirely, but thought it was an oddity worth bringing up as the attribution is from the collector not the museum mislabeling at a later date.

The profiles of kaskaras and takoubas... Unfortunately this rather complex even from my own brief experiences. Takouba blades are generally lighter, but come in a wide variety of profiles and are not always rounded at the tip - personally I have a couple with sharp tips. I'm not familiar with the Sudanese short swords you referenced but that's probably not entirely surprising as your own experience is quite a bit larger!

My major "beef" with the Bayajidda sword is that it simply makes no sense to me. I was also under the impression that the script used in amongst the Fulani, Hausa and Turaeg was Maghribi. With the sub forms being Saharan, Suqi and Sudani. My reference for this is mainly reading articles about the manuscripts known from Timbuktu.

However one article I found on Arabic literary tradition of West Africa had this to say:

In the 19th century, the connections between Muslim scholars of the western Sudan (Futa, Mali, Masina, etc.) and those of the central Sudan (Hausaland, Bornu, Adamawa) intensified. These networks encouraged circulation of the political enthusiasm conveyed by the successful experience of the Sokoto Caliphate of the Fodios; the doctrinal renewal conveyed by the Sufi turuq; and the anxieties, joined with millennial beliefs, created by the news of the coming wave of European conquests. In 1825 and 1837, Sokoto was visited by a Fulani scholar from Futa Jallon, al-Hajj ‘Umar, on his way to and from Mecca. Back in the western Sudan, al-Hajj ‘Umar rallied an army and launched a jihad that would lead him to confront both local kingdoms and the rising French colonial power. An important effect of al-Hajj ‘Umar’s campaigns was that they contributed to the spread of small Tijani communities throughout the region—these would later develop into the most active religious networks of the 20th century in most of West Africa.

http://digital.library.northwestern....istorical.html

So I would say that the style of the script is not impossible for West Africa given the interaction between scholars of Sudan and West Africa. I still find it strange that it is hard to find other takouba with script on the blades. Or simply kaskara with takouba hilts.... Well wait a sec I just remembered one.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=26

So that's two at least.

Cheers,

Iain

[Tim Simmons]

Also this example. When I acquired this perhaps a decade back. I was still stuck in the Sudan Omdurman thing. Latter and on this forum I was shown that this blade is a Tuareg form. I have been brought to believe the Tuareg are most domminant in the west and have some influence in the area discussed here. The area has several Mosque/Universities, I believe one is said to be very old for the Islamic world, so I do not think there would be any lack of schoolars to guide any artists.

[Jim McDougall]

Again, I am delighted to be able to enter into discussion on this subject matter with both of you, and it is great to see not only deep interest, but experience evidenced by great examples....and impressive research. I really appreciate the examples you have both added here, which really give great perspective.

Ispn, these links are really good examples that some links between the Sudan and Saharan regions to the west show a degree of hybridization. I would point out that it is known that small numbers of Tuareg, in of course thier typical nomadic fashion, were situated in areas of the Sudan, though I believe in the Darfur areas rather than Nilotic . Going through the links you have provided ( excellent!!) my observations would be,
1. The Sudanese childs sword...these dukari symbols are entirely stylized stamps using a disc and wavy line which have lost identity as crescent moons, but the positioning, therefore temporal symbolism remain. The triple fuller central blade is characteristic.
2. The full size kaskara with heavy disc pommel is of Darfur style and is with the central triple fuller configuration, with correctly formed dukari moons in correct position at outer fuller terminus'.
This is reminscent of the thuluth covered 'Hausa' example shown in Briggs.
3. A distinct Darfur type kaskara, however with a single central fuller and inscription of lohr panel with traditional positioned crescent moons, but with the same circular stamp and wavy line of number one.
4. Another childs kaskara with the standard triple fullers and disc with wavy line, of the form of 1, 4
5. Another higher quality Darfur type kaskara of characteristic silverwork, blade triple fuller, with the stylized wavy line disc.

These are evidence that the symbolic markings used on takouba were probably either used in degenerated forms or stylizations by smiths who had either brought or adopted these from those in takouba producing regions.
It must be noted that both takouba and kaskara are of course broadswords, and there would have been movement in either direction via trade or nomadic tribal movements.

I think the best example yet is the southern mounted Tuareg takouba with the thuluth covered Tuareg blade. This blade is of course a Sudanese etched blade of Solingen origin, as were many kaskara blades in the 19th century.
Seeing this blade mounted in Taureg hilt strongly emphasizes that these blades did move the the west on occasion. This one is truly an anomaly which further emphasizes the potential for such blades from the Sudan to have reached trade centers as far as Nigeria.

The kaskara in the American museum is of course a perfect example of museum bureaucracy. Often donors will misattribute items which are part of estates of family and they assume the provenance from what they know of the persons travels. The museum should have researched the weapon further and realized it is a Sudanese kaskara, not a Tuareg sword. Frankly the average person does not typically know one broadsword from another, and some museums sometimes sensationalize display captions to suit thier purposes. Gratefully, most are more attentive, and Im very surprised this error was not caught.

Tim, a very interesting example which is of course a Sudanese dagger fashioned from a socket bayonet, I believe this is a Martini-Henry, but Im not entirely certain, though it appears British military. The crocodile hide, and in this case, the foot, was a well known decorative mounting, which I have always thought was a sort of psyschological presentation, which may have had more to do with the slaving enterprises. The thuluth inscriptions on the blade may indicate this was absorbed in the acid etching processes at Omdurman during the Mahdist years however.
I have not seen these blades used on Tuareg weapons personally, but know that they were often used across Africa for many weapons including s'boula in Morocco, though those were typically French bayonets.


Thanks again guys very much,
All best regards,
Jim

[Jens Nordlunde]

There are Maru’s and there are Haladies – they are the same, but called differently as they appear to be from different places.

This one is Indian and dated 1221 AH – 1806 AD.

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding example Jens! Thank you. These are the Rajput weapons which evolved out of the connected horn type parrying weapons of Rajasthan.
It is really interesting to see this example with bifurcated tips.
Thank you for getting the thread back to the original course in looking into the haladie and some of its history.

All the very best,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Jim. The dagger has monitor lizard skin and foot dress. I was once in tune with the British bayonet thing but now I am informed. As I acquired another very much smaller with a scabbard, saddly I have no longer. The scabbard was dressed with the stuffed head of a monitor lizard and front leg. The blade was the same form and you could see from the forging it was not a converted bayonet. I started a thread which i will try to find. The thread I would really like to find started by a member that I cannot remeber. Displaying two or three daggers of the same blade form except the handles were clearly North African ie Tunis, Algeria, Morroco.

[Jim McDougall]

Tim I didnt realize this was the lizard and from photos I only saw reptilian
Naturally there werent many crocs in the Sahara
I really had not ever heard of Tuaregs having these kind of blades, which are of bayonet form, but do know that as you note, Berber tribal groups did use them. As I mentioned though, most were French types, but this blade section like most was probably widespread.
I'd like to see that thread, and this really is an interesting weapon....but to me the thuluth is still Sudanese. The monitor lizard skin is on many of the knives and dagger forms I have seen from there.

What you're saying is quite correct, Timbuktu was a profound center of Islamic scholarship, though was often considered an earthen desert spot that became synonomous with being the middle of nowhere....until in recent years amazing libraries and archives were revealed. Here in Mali, the trade routes and interaction of nomadic tribes, most prevalent being Tuareg, is well noted and cultural awareness certainly well represented.