Very long dha

Emanuel · 18th November 2007, 04:30 PM

Hello,

I was watching this Burmese dha on the bay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=004 and I was struck by how long the scabbard was. Tha blade had once been broken and the remaining length was about 20". Now looking at the scabbard it looks like it may once have been up to 40" long. I haven't seen such long dha yet, any comments?

ariel · 18th November 2007, 07:42 PM

Looks very nice and restorable, but the blade is broken

Hey, how about shortening the scabbard to 27" and pretend that the blade fits perfectly?

katana · 18th November 2007, 10:46 PM

Hi Emanuel,
I followed this .... with the same thoughts about the original length. I was going to bid and try and reprofile the blade so that it had distal taper ....but it would remove too much of the original surface ....its a real shame that it was not 'complete' .... must have been a very desirable Dah in its heyday.

Regards David

Mark · 19th November 2007, 11:03 PM

Wow. I have not seen many 40" blades, but they do exist. The ones I have seen have longer handles, though. The one-handed grip would have made this pretty clumsy to use, I think. An interesting piece, and its too bad that it is in such bad shape.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 20th November 2007, 02:55 PM

Like Mark I've seen only seen one this long and it was at the Vimamek Mansion, they had it listed as a processional dha, but it was definitely more of a Central Thai style with the belly swell towards the tip and no scabbard.

Could the handle have been shortened after it broke?
Does the hilt size and the top of the scabbard match up (same diameter)?

Definitely interesting!

Dan

Emanuel · 20th November 2007, 10:14 PM

I was seriously considering getting it, David. The blade is quite nice, but the bad overall shape and the ridiculous shipping price put me off.

Mark I was thinking the same about the odd proportions. I find it interesting that the false edge or back edge starts so close to the hilt. In other pieces I've seen the false edge is closer to the tip.

Dan, the listing had a picture of the scabbard mouth and top of the hilt together; it looks like they fit perfectly, stylistically as well as in terms of dimensions. Here is the pic.

Emanuel

PUFF · 21st November 2007, 12:18 PM

According to style of the silver work, some collectors in my area ID this piece as a "Rakhine" 's Dha. They are usually "Dha" size. Although many of them has curve, cut-off tip like this... one can also find other tip styles from this area.

Having false edge upto 1/2 or 2/3 's not uncommon.
We are now discussing about possibility that the peice was used by an elephant rider.

Mark · 21st November 2007, 05:51 PM

Coincedentally, this photo just came up on e-bay. I had to wait until I'd completed the purchase, but here it is. It is captioned "Burmese Warriors at the Review of Native Chiefs Retinues." They can be identified as Shan by their dress (floppy hats and wide pants). Notice the size of the dha some of these guys are carrying. I haven't heard the term Rahkine before. A chief would be called a Sawbaw (also transliterated in various other ways). Perhaps a Rahkine is a retainer, or a specialized army unit.

PUFF · 22nd November 2007, 02:06 AM

Rakhine refers to ethnic group or ethnic state on the south-west of Burma.
Collectors in my area often catagorize Dha from Burman side by their ethnic groups (other than Shan and Kachin).

Many thank for the photo

Mark · 22nd November 2007, 01:51 PM

I thought is sounded like "Rakhan" (Arracan). I wasn't sure if Rakhin was the same. As I said, though, I am sure these guys are Shan (unless they are dressed like them for some reason). Maybe they work for an Arracanese chief? Here is another Shan warrior.

.

Emanuel · 23rd November 2007, 01:34 AM

Wow Mark, nice pictures. I like the Shan garb, and those dha seem huge! It must take considerable dexterity to unsheath them.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 23rd November 2007, 11:28 AM

Wow is right. those are GREAT pictures! I've never seen or heard of these before (but there on my shopping list now)

Looking at the pictures along with Mark's comment on the one-handed grip, it does look like it's been shortened. Beautiful fit at the hilt scabbard, not so great at the pommel.

As for unsheathing them well that's the nice thing about being CHIEF - you either 1.don't have to or 2. someone does it for you

Dan

PUFF · 24th November 2007, 12:41 PM

Many thanks for the picture... it's Shan (Tai) people who using a kind of very long sword.

However, those Tai warrior may not related to Rakhan (Arracan) chief. It 's not unusual to find one ethnic group 's decoration style on another group 's objects. Many Lanna weapon use Tai decoration style though

I 'm also interested by those guys on the back. The picture res. 's so low that I could not figure out if they are indian or european. Would you mind to show it in higher resolution ?

Ian · 26th November 2007, 07:36 PM

The question of unusually long dha forms also brings to mind the squared-off swords of Assam and neighboring regions. These resemble the Kachin style sword seen in NW Burma and widely copied in other areas, including Thailand.

The Assamese "dha sword" is carried in an open-faced scabbard and the blade is typically more than 30 inches in length.

In the picture below: the top sword (1) is an Assamese "sword dha" (blade length 32 in.); (2) appears to be a transition between the Assamese and Kachin "sword dha" (blade length 26 in.); (3) is an unusual Kachin style "sword dha" that has a lobed guard in the Chinese style (courtesy of Philip Tom; blade length 27.5 in.); and (4) is a curved Kachin style "sword dha" (blade length 25.5 in.).

Each of these is longer than the usual Kachin style "sword dha" with a blade length that averages about 20-22 inches.

And then there is this one from Artzi's site that is truly massive -- massive dha

Ian.

Mark · 26th November 2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

Many thanks for the picture... it's Shan (Tai) people who using a kind of very long sword.

However, those Tai warrior may not related to Rakhan (Arracan) chief. It 's not unusual to find one ethnic group 's decoration style on another group 's objects. Many Lanna weapon use Tai decoration style though

I 'm also interested by those guys on the back. The picture res. 's so low that I could not figure out if they are indian or european. Would you mind to show it in higher resolution ?

I am afraid that is the best that I can do. If you referring to the bearded gentlemen seen over the shoulders of the Tai warriors, those are "native" troops, I believe Sikh.

kahnjar1 · 1st December 2007, 04:21 AM

This has now reached its new home in NZ, and some of the comments above can now be clarified.
The scabbard indeed appears to have been 40" long or maybe even slightly longer as there is an area of shattered wood which does not quite fit together cleanly.
The handle does not appear to have been shortened as the profile of the pommel top matches that of the wood. I would have thought that if it had been cut shorter, the cut would be square across rather than the way it is...........however...............that blade, or the 20" which remains, weighs about a 1 1/4lb (half kilogram), so that would have made the blade a hefty 2 1/2lb, which I would have thought would have been a chore to swing with a one handed grip, especially considering the stature of the burmese race.
The pommel DOES in fact fit correctly, as the gap shown is so that it fits OVER the rayskin grip which is missing.
The blade spine which is scalloped, is 3/8" wide at the hilt, and runs for 11 1/2" before the false edge starts. The blade profile is the same internally right to the end of the scabbard, which would suggest a clipped tip, rather than a tapered one.
Some more pics attached

18th November 2007, 04:30 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Very long dha Hello, I was watching this Burmese dha on the bay: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA:IT&ih=004 and I was struck by how long the scabbard was. Tha blade had once been broken and the remaining length was about 20". Now looking at the scabbard it looks like it may once have been up to 40" long. I haven't seen such long dha yet, any comments? Attached Images

20th November 2007, 02:55 PM	#5
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Shortened Like Mark I've seen only seen one this long and it was at the Vimamek Mansion, they had it listed as a processional dha, but it was definitely more of a Central Thai style with the belly swell towards the tip and no scabbard. Could the handle have been shortened after it broke? Does the hilt size and the top of the scabbard match up (same diameter)? Definitely interesting! Dan

20th November 2007, 10:14 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I was seriously considering getting it, David. The blade is quite nice, but the bad overall shape and the ridiculous shipping price put me off. Mark I was thinking the same about the odd proportions. I find it interesting that the false edge or back edge starts so close to the hilt. In other pieces I've seen the false edge is closer to the tip. Dan, the listing had a picture of the scabbard mouth and top of the hilt together; it looks like they fit perfectly, stylistically as well as in terms of dimensions. Here is the pic. Emanuel Attached Images

21st November 2007, 05:51 PM	#8
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Coincedentally, this photo just came up on e-bay. I had to wait until I'd completed the purchase, but here it is. It is captioned "Burmese Warriors at the Review of Native Chiefs Retinues." They can be identified as Shan by their dress (floppy hats and wide pants). Notice the size of the dha some of these guys are carrying. I haven't heard the term Rahkine before. A chief would be called a Sawbaw (also transliterated in various other ways). Perhaps a Rahkine is a retainer, or a specialized army unit. Attached Images

26th November 2007, 07:36 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Long dha The question of unusually long dha forms also brings to mind the squared-off swords of Assam and neighboring regions. These resemble the Kachin style sword seen in NW Burma and widely copied in other areas, including Thailand. The Assamese "dha sword" is carried in an open-faced scabbard and the blade is typically more than 30 inches in length. In the picture below: the top sword (1) is an Assamese "sword dha" (blade length 32 in.); (2) appears to be a transition between the Assamese and Kachin "sword dha" (blade length 26 in.); (3) is an unusual Kachin style "sword dha" that has a lobed guard in the Chinese style (courtesy of Philip Tom; blade length 27.5 in.); and (4) is a curved Kachin style "sword dha" (blade length 25.5 in.). Each of these is longer than the usual Kachin style "sword dha" with a blade length that averages about 20-22 inches. And then there is this one from Artzi's site that is truly massive -- massive dha Ian.

18th November 2007, 07:42 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks very nice and restorable, but the blade is broken Hey, how about shortening the scabbard to 27" and pretend that the blade fits perfectly?

18th November 2007, 10:46 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Emanuel, I followed this .... with the same thoughts about the original length. I was going to bid and try and reprofile the blade so that it had distal taper ....but it would remove too much of the original surface ....its a real shame that it was not 'complete' .... must have been a very desirable Dah in its heyday. Regards David

19th November 2007, 11:03 PM	#4
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Wow. I have not seen many 40" blades, but they do exist. The ones I have seen have longer handles, though. The one-handed grip would have made this pretty clumsy to use, I think. An interesting piece, and its too bad that it is in such bad shape.

21st November 2007, 12:18 PM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	According to style of the silver work, some collectors in my area ID this piece as a "Rakhine" 's Dha. They are usually "Dha" size. Although many of them has curve, cut-off tip like this... one can also find other tip styles from this area. Having false edge upto 1/2 or 2/3 's not uncommon. We are now discussing about possibility that the peice was used by an elephant rider.

22nd November 2007, 02:06 AM	#9
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Rakhine refers to ethnic group or ethnic state on the south-west of Burma. Collectors in my area often catagorize Dha from Burman side by their ethnic groups (other than Shan and Kachin). Many thank for the photo

22nd November 2007, 01:51 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I thought is sounded like "Rakhan" (Arracan). I wasn't sure if Rakhin was the same. As I said, though, I am sure these guys are Shan (unless they are dressed like them for some reason). Maybe they work for an Arracanese chief? Here is another Shan warrior. .

23rd November 2007, 01:34 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Wow Mark, nice pictures. I like the Shan garb, and those dha seem huge! It must take considerable dexterity to unsheath them.

23rd November 2007, 11:28 AM	#12
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Wow is right. those are GREAT pictures! I've never seen or heard of these before (but there on my shopping list now) Looking at the pictures along with Mark's comment on the one-handed grip, it does look like it's been shortened. Beautiful fit at the hilt scabbard, not so great at the pommel. As for unsheathing them well that's the nice thing about being CHIEF - you either 1.don't have to or 2. someone does it for you Dan

24th November 2007, 12:41 PM	#13
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Many thanks for the picture... it's Shan (Tai) people who using a kind of very long sword. However, those Tai warrior may not related to Rakhan (Arracan) chief. It 's not unusual to find one ethnic group 's decoration style on another group 's objects. Many Lanna weapon use Tai decoration style though I 'm also interested by those guys on the back. The picture res. 's so low that I could not figure out if they are indian or european. Would you mind to show it in higher resolution ?

1st December 2007, 04:21 AM	#16
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	This has now reached its new home in NZ, and some of the comments above can now be clarified. The scabbard indeed appears to have been 40" long or maybe even slightly longer as there is an area of shattered wood which does not quite fit together cleanly. The handle does not appear to have been shortened as the profile of the pommel top matches that of the wood. I would have thought that if it had been cut shorter, the cut would be square across rather than the way it is...........however...............that blade, or the 20" which remains, weighs about a 1 1/4lb (half kilogram), so that would have made the blade a hefty 2 1/2lb, which I would have thought would have been a chore to swing with a one handed grip, especially considering the stature of the burmese race. The pommel DOES in fact fit correctly, as the gap shown is so that it fits OVER the rayskin grip which is missing. The blade spine which is scalloped, is 3/8" wide at the hilt, and runs for 11 1/2" before the false edge starts. The blade profile is the same internally right to the end of the scabbard, which would suggest a clipped tip, rather than a tapered one. Some more pics attached Attached Images